Why is the 1st shave after honing so disagreeable?

I did my monthly hone job on my beloved W&B. The first shave was so shockingly mediocre, I thought, "I must not have honed enough to get the bevel back." But then I felt it with my thumb & thought, "Goddamn, it FEELS sharp. Let's not jump to conclusions. I'll try one more shave before I go back to the hone." Guess what? BBS. The shave of kings.

Why is the first shave so bad? It's almost like it's "too sharp" or something...instead of gliding smoothly across my face, the edge wants to skip & dig in. But all it takes is one shave (plus 50 laps on the strop, of course), and that nasty, uncivilized edge smooths right out.

Anyone out there with a microscope know what's going on? Would it help to do a double- or triple-round of stropping after honing? At the moment, I only do 10X Cr02 and 50X plain leather after honing, the same as I do before any other shave.

Although you might get many different opinions of the use of linen strops, I think that is what yer missing here.... Try adding 50 laps on linen, then up your stropping on leather to 75-100 right after the honing and paste, and see if that doesn't smooth the 1st shave out....

If not try the plain newspaper trick for like 30-40 laps

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Try adding 50 laps on linen, then up your stropping on leather to 75-100 right after the honing and paste, and see if that doesn't smooth the 1st shave out....

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This works for me. Great shaves right off the hone. With a 15x magnifying glass, you can see that the bevel has been burnished and I think that's what does it.

Bevel burnishing, eh? I can't see that with my 10X lupe (came to me by way of my grandpa, who was a jeweler). As for linen...I have an old strop with a linen side, but it's got some fairly aggressive abrasive compound on it. I'll need to clean all that crap off it first. I recall seeing some threads about cleaning old linen strops. Time to search the forum...

If I am getting a harsh feel on the first pass or just not smooth enough I find that 5 roundtrips with Chrome Ox on a piece of felt is magic.

You probably won't be able to get all of the abrasive compound out of that strop, the general rule is that once a surface is pasted, there's no changing it.

But yes, more stropping is the key for me. I've never used pastes with any regularity and find that ~100 laps on a good leather strop smooth out any edge that is fine enough to be considered for a test shave.

A finer finishing stone couldn't hurt, but isn't at all necessary.

After chrome leather I goto my hanging strop for at least a 60 count. No isses with rough shaves if I did my part at the stones :p

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Originally Posted by DwarvenChef

After chrome leather I goto my hanging strop for at least a 60 count. No isses with rough shaves if I did my part at the stones :p

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Dito that. Sounds to me like you should play around with the post honing stropping to solve your issue.

X

Could it be, that a slight wire edge was formed? The first shave knocked that edge off, then the stropping smoothed things out.

P.S What happened to your bevel? That part struck me as odd, thought one only needs to set a bevel once? :thinking:

What you didn't say was if this happened last month as well or before, or what hone you finished on

I think the additional cro did it on the second round.

I agree with the idea that you probably had the beginnings of a wire edge. The solution is as mentioned, a whole bunch of stropping.
Also remember that in between shaves the edge rusts a bit so the steel is brittle and the second round of stropping would have removed the now rusted wire edge.

Your key phrase was "skip and dig", that is how a wire edge performs.
Very uncomfortable.

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Although you might get many different opinions of the use of linen strops, I think that is what yer missing here....

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+1

Although my shaves do get better after a couple, I still get a great shave right
off of the hone with a good amount of strokes on the linen and leather.

- Scott

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

P.S What happened to your bevel? That part struck me as odd, thought one only needs to set a bevel once? :thinking:

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I'm convexing it into oblivion with frequent touch-ups on Cr02 (I have a harsh beard, plus I'm a maniac about getting perfect shaves).

For starters I'm going with the wire-edge theory. I re-honed the blade just so I could start from scratch again, but I buggered the experiment by being lazy & not doing enough laps on the fine hones, so of course I got a lousy shave. But here's my plan of attack:

1) Hone properly

2) Do 20 laps on Cr02 and 100 laps on plain leather after honing to see if that smooths it out.

3) If (2) fails, clean & re-wax the linen strop & see if that helps. Stay tuned...

PS: one thing that frustrates me no end is that the perfect shave is SO DAMN ELUSIVE! I get it & lose it & get it & lose it... The blade seems to reach its perfect state about 3 shaves before it becomes so convexed I have to hone it again. Maddening.

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

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To be honest, your process sounds very similar to mine. I go straight from the coticule to the leather, then for subsequent shaves linen then leather. The only difference is sometimes I also hit a few passes on a barber hone as well.

John P.

OK, I'm in the process of soaking all the crud off my linen strop. While I'm waiting, I decided to try stropping on plain newspaper as a substitute. It turned my razor into a butter knife. Worst shave of my life. I'll never do that again! Hopefully the linen will be better than that.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

I used to get wire edges all the time and used chrome ox before each shave. I've now abandoned pastes entirely and just use coticule, canvas and leather and am doing much better and not need anything but strop and canvas between shaves.

I think you may be really overusing the chrome ox, but I'm too new at this to opine. I think if you get the honing right you should be able to skip the chrome ox and you won't get so many wire edges and won't be messing your edge as much as it sounds like you are doing.

Again, I know very little but this sounds like an error I used to make and I was always cutting myself up and now I don't.

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Strange, I thought stropping on chromium oxide would rather remove a wire edge instead of creating one. I would also think that if one knocks off a wire edge with stropping or some other form of backhoning, the razor is left without a good edge and needs at least some re-honing.

Johnny, I know you do 10X Chromium and 50X leather right after honing, but what do you do before that? And what do you use for the Chromium part? (a paddle? or a hanging strop?)

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Johnny, I know you do 10X Chromium and 50X leather right after honing, but what do you do before that?

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The following progression of barber hones:
A really coarse Swaty (around 1K grit)
Cushioned strop hone
Gem hone
Lithide hone

Depending on the razor, it will take around 20 laps on each (maybe 10 on that coarse Swaty b/c it's so aggressive). I use a jeweler's lupe & that feeling of suction to decide when to stop. I use the hones dry.

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Originally Posted by Bart

And what do you use for the Chromium part? (a paddle? or a hanging strop?)
Bart.

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Loom strop which was coated with Cr02 on one side from the factory.

PS: the Swaty is a freak hone, probably from a bad batch. But it serves a purpose for me: it has replaced 1K sandpaper & glass as my go-to bevel-setter.

Edit: I just re-honed after the newspaper stropping disaster, and instead of finishing with 20X Cr02 + 50X plain, I finished with a double-dose (100 stokes) of plain leather. The results are quite good. Once my linen is cleaned up, I'll try doing maintenance with the linen instead of Cr02 and maybe I can get by without the Cr02 altogether.

when you feel like splurging you might try a coticule. I laugh giving that advice because it's the only hone I have but it really is a nice experience and a differnt way to come at it. And you can do 100s of laps and not overhone.

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

The following progression of barber hones:
A really coarse Swaty (around 1K grit)
Cushioned strop hone
Gem hone
Lithide hone

Depending on the razor, it will take around 20 laps on each (maybe 10 on that coarse Swaty b/c it's so aggressive). I use a jeweler's lupe & that feeling of suction to decide when to stop. I use the hones dry.

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I can't comment on those hones much, because I'm not familiar with them. Are they meant for dry use? I ask because on many hones, dry use causes a significantly coarser edge. If I use a DMT1200 dry, I can clearly see at 40X magnification that it leaves the edge with a irregular dented pattern, than when I use water for lubrication.

If you use that loom strop real tight, those 10 laps Chromium Oxide may be to little to really smooth out the edge. With a flat stropping surface, the CrO needs to abrade a fairly large surface. With some slack in the strop, it only works on the tip of the bevel, which is a much faster abrasive action, at the same time introducing a convex shape at your cutting bevel.

I think your initial bad shave was caused by not enough smoothening on the CrO. The 10 extra laps and more leather stropping from the second shave simply remedied that.
I remember from a previous thread, that the convex approach works very well for you. You won't hear me criticizing on that.

I would try 20 laps CrO before the first shave, and also experiment with using water or lather on your hones. I believe it could make a real difference.

Bart.

Hey Bart,

Barber hones can be used wet or dry. They're a little more forgiving of mediocre technique when wet. Dry takes a VERY light touch, but I think you get a better result.

The convex edge does work for me, but the down side is, at the end of the month, I have a lot of honing to do to get the bevel back, and then a few bad shaves to endure before that nasty new bevel smooths out.

BTW, now that my face has completely dried I can feel that the double-stropping on the plain leather didn't help as much as I thought. Damn. Back to the drawing board.

I haven't tried increasing the # of laps on the Cr02, though. Yes, I have the loom strop set up pretty tight.

you asked about the microscope, the radio shack mini is hard to beat for 10 bucks

how does the edge feel after the hone?

Here is a link to a scope almost the same as I use
30X ILLUMINATED LED HAND HELD MICROSCOPE MAGNIFIER - eBay (item 350085423291 end time Aug-05-08 18:41:32 PDT)

It is better than the radio shack because it has a larger field of view and better resolution. It tells me everything I need to know.

You do not need 60x-100x to remove nicks, establish bevels and watch for wire edges.

Hope this helps,:)

Several years ago I purchased the following hone from the American Hone Company:

1. A Swaty
2. Moravian
3. Super Punjab
4. Fricionite

I would be interested in opinions of these hones and how they are used.

The Moravian is my favorite - It works great on my Dubl Duck Wonderedge.

Thx for the tip on the microscope, Randy. Do you need 30X? There are 20X jeweler's loupes out there that are nice & pocket-size.

This canvas strop is the strop from hell.I soaked it all night in laundry detergent and water, & scrubbed with a scrub brush. A ton of crap came out of it, but it's still dingy brown, stiff, and one side has visible traces of what looks like jeweler's rouge.

Should I repeat this procedure a few more times? Use bleach?

I'm a honer, not a hone meister and my experience and knowledge is limited. However.... It sounds like an awful lot of wear happening to your razor. This convex bevel thing, stropping lots on the pastes sound very odd to me and if you have to take it to 1k each time, then thats quite a bit of metal removal happening every month. I am not familiar with your hone line up either, but I think the problem lies somewhere between the hones, pastes and probably technique.

Have you thought about a different line up of hones? Such as the nortons, they sound like very good quality and suitable for most budgets.

Just my thoughts. :shrug:

Yeah, Thanks for the heads up on that 30 power scope. I'm not 100% sure what higher resolution of microscopes means, but I think it has to do with a larger mirror. I mostly use mine at 60, but at 100 there are some clear views of the invisible. a major drawback of the RS MM is the small view so a larger view sounds like a nice feature.

An important question: what does a wire edge look like? I've had a few problems that sound symptomatic of over honed / wire edge but never saw it in the scope.

I would also like to submit the idea that you do not get a better edge dry. Without a little water or lather on the hone you end up going over the swarf deposited on the hone. It almost sounds like you consider its use a mark against your skill.

The more I think about it I've had a similar problem with my mini geewiz. being the nearest mint razor I have, I tended to hone it a little less than it probably needed. However after considerable use on my mini-card cro strop it eventually yielded the best save I ever gave, but soon after disintegrated.

Another thought- are you holding the hone in your hand? I've never found any particular advantage to this. I certainly know how to lock my body into a solid stance, but with the hone on the bench accuracy of stroke is far superior imho. a hand held hone could certainly introduce some inconsistency allowing previous scratches to be left behind.

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

Thx for the tip on the microscope, Randy. Do you need 30X? There are 20X jeweler's loupes out there that are nice & pocket-size.

This canvas strop is the strop from hell.I soaked it all night in laundry detergent and water, & scrubbed with a scrub brush. A ton of crap came out of it, but it's still dingy brown, stiff, and one side has visible traces of what looks like jeweler's rouge.

Should I repeat this procedure a few more times? Use bleach?

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So far I have only used the 30X and the Radio Shack 60x-100x so I cannot comment on anything else. Sorry. You need to be able to see microniks in the edge, scratch lines from the hones, 2 colors if there are 2 bevels, and the telltale rust/brown/gold spots or lines of a wire edge. The resolution (clarity, focus) needs to be adequate and thats where the RS scope falls down IMHO.

Linen strops are a pain to clean. It depends on just how clean you want them. A few years ago I tried to clean some of them and ended up throwing them in the washing machine. I soaked them first in soapy water. They came out very clean but very limp, just like a cotton towel. Whatever had been used to impregnate the linen was now gone.
Puffah posted the process that he and his father used to re-treat the linens. Essentially melt some parrafin wax then mix with turpentine and work the mix in to the linen if I recall correctly. Look up Puffahs posts for a better description.

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Originally Posted by kevint

Yeah, Thanks for the heads up on that 30 power scope. I'm not 100% sure what higher resolution of microscopes means, but I think it has to do with a larger mirror. I mostly use mine at 60, but at 100 there are some clear views of the invisible. a major drawback of the RS MM is the small view so a larger view sounds like a nice feature.

An important question: what does a wire edge look like? I've had a few problems that sound symptomatic of over honed / wire edge but never saw it in the scope.
A wire edge is an edge that has become to thin. It is so thin that it bends when it tries to cut a whisker so it either skips over the whisker if it bends one way or digs into the skin if it flexes the other way and gives an acute angle. In a scope this will appear as a different color along some part of the very edge but not for the full length of the edge. As the edge becomes progressively thinner the edge will bend more, in spots, and appear as a rust/gold/browning color along the edge, again, in spots. Still thinner and the edge disintegrates in spots and appears as a micronick.


I would also like to submit the idea that you do not get a better edge dry. Without a little water or lather on the hone you end up going over the swarf deposited on the hone. It almost sounds like you consider its use a mark against your skill.
The jury is still deliberating on the wet/ry honing issue. Not enough of us have tried it on a sufficient number of razors to say one way or the other. Based on some of the comments here I have just begun to experiment with this.

The more I think about it I've had a similar problem with my mini geewiz. being the nearest mint razor I have, I tended to hone it a little less than it probably needed. However after considerable use on my mini-card cro strop it eventually yielded the best save I ever gave, but soon after disintegrated. Ya, it is now either rounded or over honed.

Another thought- are you holding the hone in your hand? I've never found any particular advantage to this. I certainly know how to lock my body into a solid stance, but with the hone on the bench accuracy of stroke is far superior imho. a hand held hone could certainly introduce some inconsistency allowing previous scratches to be left behind.

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I use both methods. With practice they both work.

I can see microchips, secondary bevels, scratch marks, etc... with a high quality 15x loupe. I would imagine that a good 20x would do the job but my hesitation would be that your focal length with the 20x loupe would be very short (you have to get very close to the razor) and you have a very small field of view. I would suggest a regular scope for any serious or repetitious work but for infrequent use, the loupe might be enough.

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

OK, I'm in the process of soaking all the crud off my linen strop. While I'm waiting, I decided to try stropping on plain newspaper as a substitute. It turned my razor into a butter knife. Worst shave of my life. I'll never do that again! Hopefully the linen will be better than that.

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I've been getting smooth results from newspaper. I take about four sheets and make a dustjacket for a hardcover book, just like we used to do back in elementary school to preserve the books that had to be passed on from year to year.Then I strop on the 'cover'.

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I'm a honer, not a hone meister and my experience and knowledge is limited. However.... It sounds like an awful lot of wear happening to your razor. Just my thoughts. :shrug:

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I know. It's OK, all my razors are $20 eBay specials. If I grind them down to stumps, they can die happy knowing that they sacrificed their lives in fulfillment of their one & only purpose. But even at the rate I'm going, I'll probably be dead before that happens. Ever experiece how much work it takes to grind out even the tiniest of chips?

The linen (or canvas or whatever it is) is much cleaner than before, but still retains enough wax to be stiff & not floppy. To experiment, I re-honed & stopped on the linen, then leather. (I used the side of the linen that had never been smeared with rouge). Boy was that a mistake! The linen ruined the edge completely. I've never seen anything like it. I had a feeling dragging that nice new edge across those cobblestones was going to be a bad idea...

OK, back to the good old chrome ox.

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

To experiment, I re-honed & stopped on the linen, then leather. (I used the side of the linen that had never been smeared with rouge). Boy was that a mistake! The linen ruined the edge completely. I've never seen anything like it. I had a feeling dragging that nice new edge across those cobblestones was going to be a bad idea...

OK, back to the good old chrome ox.

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This makes the second or third time that I have seen this comment in this forum. I have never had a problem with the stiff linen damaging an edge and I have used mine regularly. This problem may be related to the fact that you also mentioned that you messed up an edge on newspaper.

Does it make sense that only an overhoned edge would be susceptible to damage from linen and/or newspaper stropping? Or could it be stropping technique? A combination??

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Originally Posted by Johnny J

Ever experiece how much work it takes to grind out even the tiniest of chips?

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Oh boy do I! I have one thats taking forever and a day to repair, the chip finally left after about 800 laps, but still the edge doesn't pass the TPT, feels like its got still 500 laps to go before I can move up to the next grit.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

This makes the second or third time that I have seen this comment in this forum. I have never had a problem with the stiff linen damaging an edge

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PErhaps it was the side that had never been smeared which caused his problem this time!? Or as you said, overhoning.

Something isn't right, so I watch this thread with great interest, to learn how the issue will be resolved.

Well, I figured out that I ruined the edge with the newspaper by not stretching it tight over a flat surface like the other poster recommended. I'm guessing the newspaper curled up enough as I was stropping to eat the edge.

As for the linen...geez, I have no idea. Before I cleaned it I had tried it once, and while the jeweler's rouge was more aggressive than I liked, it didn't eat the razor like it did this time. It's possible that the linen needs a lot of wax or soap or whatever to fill the voids between the cobblestones so the texture is not too rough. Maybe by cleaning it I removed enough wax to make the surface really brutal. I'll try re-waxing it & see if that helps.

Update: I must be certifiably insane. I was up at midnight last night doing shaving experiments instead of getting sleep like I should.

Anyway, I waxed my linen strop with a candle & smoothed it out with a smooth coffee mug. Rehoned the razor from scratch (i.e. starting with bevel-setting) and finished with 20 laps on the linen and 50 on the leather. Exquisite shave. absolutely perfect.

So you guys were right.

Here's my theory: when I hone from scratch, all those laps were raising a wire edge which I was polishing, not removing, with the Cr02. The first several shaves would be mediocre because I was removing the wire edge with my face. Eventually, the wire edge would be gone & I'd have a nice convexed & polished Cr02 bevel. I'd get exquisite shaves until the bevel became too rounded to cut hair, then I'd start all over again. The full cycle takes about a month.

Here's the question which I have yet to answer: if I do maintenance touch-ups on linen instead of on Cr02, will that effectively touch the edge up without rounding off my bevel? Time will tell. Maybe the chrome ox and I are about to shake hands & part ways. Or maybe the Cr02 is good to use when the linen stops working. We'll see. Anyone have any experience with this?

You cannot do touch ups with linen. It is not abrasive, it is a burnisher (smoother) of the steel.
To prolong the life of the edge only use the Cr ox when necessary and then for 10 laps. Then test shave. Repeat if necessary.

Sounds like you got it going now.

I use the linen occasionally and it seems to help refine the edge. I use the ChromeOx (5-10 laps max) even less frequently and that's when the linen has quit working and I don't have time to touch the edge up on a hone.

I have found that using linen for touch-ups means that the time spent when I do have to go back on the hone is much shorter than the honing time when I used ChromeOx.

I also noticed that after using ChromeOx a couple of times and then going to linen, the edge on a couple of blades got micro-chipped. That's why I think that besides convexing an edge, it also 'stretches' it making it very thin at the business edge. Just my hypothesis...

For the reasons that I mentioned, I seldom use the ChromeOx. I think it's a good tool but for me, the disadvantages slightly outweigh the advantages.

Riddle me this, Batman... If I can't do touch-ups on the linen, can I do touch-ups on a fine hone, & burnish the edge on linen afterwards? Then I wouldn't need the chrome ox. The reason I started using the Cr02 in the first place is because touching up on a hone was giving me a wire edge, which I did not know linen can remove.

That's what I usually do. You may find, as I did, that when using the linen along with the leather that you don't have to go back to the hone as often and the time on the hone is short which prevents wire edges.