Help with choosing a finishing stone

To Pondering Turtle..................

I noticed some jibes about justifying the hones we own.

Just for the record, mine were very inexpensive and they are unbelievably good.

But if you choose to believe we enjoy our hobby as a money sport, I suggest that you go and join the Gillette brigade and really make an investment in shaving technology.

There you will find a kindred spirit. With sarcastic prices to match your tongue.:nono:

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Originally Posted by blaireau

When you are dealing with energy you are dealing with different forms of it. These forms can be transformed into each other but they are fundamentally different. We are applying mechanical energy into the metal. This can have a similar effect as if we were applying thermal energy.

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I understand this fully, my belt grinder will ruin the temper on a razor (along with my fingers at that point) in a matter of seconds with enough pressure.

But unless you can show that honing a razor makes the edge exceed 500 degrees fahrenheit (:eek: ) , there is no change in the steel's properties.

I believe I see Rich's point. Exposing the edge to the abrasive is how we progress from a dull to a keen edge. Taking a razor with the bevel well defined and progressively finishing it to leave a "comfortable" edge is obviously the task at hand.

But certain materials respond differently to different hones. Given that a Natural stone has a certain amount of material that is actually abrasive to material that is the "filler" or carrier that makes up the hone, defines the rate at which the edge will be worked "per stroke".

Using a man-made hone such as the Shapton which has a MUCH greater amount of abrasive available to the edge will certainly speed up the job but in some cases may actually cause some materials to chip. Using a slower cutting stone would allow you to approach the limit that the edge will actually support. Giving you more control over how well the edge is defined.

If the material actually doesn't change- WHY then, do some hones work better than others on a given razor.

OR is this an example of just the SKILL the person honing the edge actually exhibits? Does that make any sense?:thinking:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

But I just read him say that his results before were fine, yet he bought more honing equipment and began experiencing better shaves :shrug:
You'll never know what lies beyond unless you venture out :D

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Exactly. I wrote my original post last night when I was extremely tired and it came out much crankier (nastier) than I meant. What I wanted to say was that, at a certain point, continued refinements become imperceptible and then you stop. For example, having tried the Chinese 12K and found no improvement, I'm no longer worried that I'm missing some great step forward if I don't have a Thuringian, Escher or one of OLD_SCHOOL's Japanese hones. Not because there isn't a difference but because I probably won't preceive it.

I also have to give credit to all of you "researchers" who pointed me in the right direction, especially gssixgun who helped me put the pastes in the right order.

My objective is a good shave (no, it's a great shave) but, for me, honing is somewhat of an annoyance and a means to an end. At the end of the day, I want to be able to hone my own razors and then I want that hone to gather as much dust as possible!

It's all in the wrist action. (OK but it's late and I'm tired..........:w)

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

A certain type of steel does behave differently depending on the stone that sharpened it. The rate that a stone abrades steel is a major contributor to the kind of edge that is left; A steel with lots of abrasion resisting alloying elements requires an aggressive stone to achieve a nice edge, but that same stone will leave a ragged edge on a softer blade made of simple steel. The difference isn't night and day, but it's there. The hardness/softness of a stone also affects the edge depending on the type and hardness of the steel, and in many cases brittle steel requires a stone that's gentle so as to avoid microchipping.

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I am not saying that a stone will cut all razors the same, or that some razors would respond to different techniques, but I think that the level some members claim, it seems to be very psychological.

Like those people who buy $3,000 speaker cables because they can hear the difference, and to an extent they do hear something that sounds better in their mind. Rather like a study showed that peoples brains respond differently when drinking the same wine if told it cost $10 vs when told it cost $90. With the pleasure centers lighting up longer for the $90 wine, when it was entirely the same.

So while there was no difference, those people certainly precieved a difference, because their perceptions were shaped by their understanding of the cost of the wine.

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Originally Posted by blaireau

When you are dealing with energy you are dealing with different forms of it. These forms can be transformed into each other but they are fundamentally different. We are applying mechanical energy into the metal. This can have a similar effect as if we were applying thermal energy. In fact, some chemists are investigating how to drive chemical reactions mechanically instead of the old standby of thermal energy. I recently was awarded a provisional patent using mechanical energy to create Perovskite ceramics for High Temperature Superconductors by using a relatively new chemical process called reactive milling. If you're interested in this, Google Professor Serge Kaliaguine of Laval University in Quebec, Canada or Professor Jeffrey Moore of the University of Illinois, you may find it interesting.

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But with steel, the ways that mechanical stresses can effect it are well studied. You could concievably work harden it, by stressing it beyond its elastic limit, causing a permenant deformation. This will change the material properties of the steel.

But I can't see why it would matter if you say milled steel away vs ground it away as long as the stresses on the steel stay well below the elastic limit outside of the cutting area, and you do not let the steel heat up enough.

Metal fatigue and other changed in the properties of metals through mechanical action has been studied for a century.

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Originally Posted by English

To Pondering Turtle..................

I noticed some jibes about justifying the hones we own.

Just for the record, mine were very inexpensive and they are unbelievably good.

But if you choose to believe we enjoy our hobby as a money sport, I suggest that you go and join the Gillette brigade and really make an investment in shaving technology.

There you will find a kindred spirit. With sarcastic prices to match your tongue.:nono:

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Sure and tell the audiophile that in blind tests his $3,000 speaker connections performed no better than wire coat hangers at transmitting the signal, and see how many audiophiles will let you hang around regardless of what they personaly have spent.

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Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

If the material actually doesn't change- WHY then, do some hones work better than others on a given razor.

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One, what is your evidence that it does?

And the other is that as the razors start with different properties and hardnesses you would not expect them to respond exactly the same, even though its properties are not changed.

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Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

I am not saying that a stone will cut all razors the same, or that some razors would respond to different techniques, but I think that the level some members claim, it seems to be very psychological.

Like those people who buy $3,000 speaker cables because they can hear the difference, and to an extent they do hear something that sounds better in their mind. Rather like a study showed that peoples brains respond differently when drinking the same wine if told it cost $10 vs when told it cost $90. With the pleasure centers lighting up longer for the $90 wine, when it was entirely the same.

So while there was no difference, those people certainly precieved a difference, because their perceptions were shaped by their understanding of the cost of the wine.

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Respectfully, I totally disagree. When you place a razor against your face and during the shave it cuts the whiskers, yet turns skin into hamburger because of its lack of smoothness-its NOT psychological.

Take a strop pasted with .25 diamond paste and go to town-chances are a sharp,yet harsh edge will result.Can you shave with a edge directly off an 8K Norton-absolutely, some may even find it comfortable. This is were advanced honing really counts-there are many roads to acheiving a keen comfortable edge. Does it take a mega buck Japanese hone? How can you judge it , if you haven't shaved with THAT razor?

Your face is full of nerve endings that WILL TELL YOU if you did a good job. Its not in your "mind"