Help with choosing a finishing stone

I am a bit confused and would like some advice regarding the choice of a finishing stone. I am currently using a belgian coticule to maintain the edge on my razors, and am getting a pretty good result. I use CrO2 on a bass wood bench strop to refresh the edge, what would be the best choice for a final polishing stone before the paste?

I have read everything I can find on the Chinese 12K (some like it, some say it is not very nice to use compared to a thuringian hone. But many people seem to think there is no sharpening benefit going from a coticule to a thuringian (or Escher). Is there a good reason to progress from the coticule to a Chinese 12K? Would I be better off getting a Shapton 16K? Then there is the Spyderco UF? Although I've read it is difficult to lap.

I guess I am looking for a little guidance as to what would be the best route to go here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Pros/Cons, etc, of each.

I posted this thread here in advanced honing because it is here I read all the threads about the Chinese 12K, the 'new' Eschers, etc.

Thanks in advance,

scott.

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Originally Posted by persco

I am a bit confused and would like some advice regarding the choice of a finishing stone. I am currently using a belgian coticule to maintain the edge on my razors, and am getting a pretty good result. I use CrO2 on a bass wood bench strop to refresh the edge, what would be the best choice for a final polishing stone before the paste?

I have read everything I can find on the Chinese 12K (some like it, some say it is not very nice to use compared to a thuringian hone. But many people seem to think there is no sharpening benefit going from a coticule to a thuringian (or Escher). Is there a good reason to progress from the coticule to a Chinese 12K? Would I be better off getting a Shapton 16K? Then there is the Spyderco UF? Although I've read it is difficult to lap.

I guess I am looking for a little guidance as to what would be the best route to go here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Pros/Cons, etc, of each.

I posted this thread here in advanced honing because it is here I read all the threads about the Chinese 12K, the 'new' Eschers, etc.

Thanks in advance,

scott.

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The Chinese 12K stone is truly an excellent polishing stone for the initial expense! All of the other stones including the Chinese 12K must be lapped before utilizing. The Chinese 12K stone is time consuming when it comes to lapping, but it is also the least expensive by far of the aforementioned stones. I'm curious as to whether your Belgian coticule is a yellow or a blue? If it is yellow, in my opinion this stone is superior for polishing to any of these other stones. Just ensure you are properly stropping on leather to achieve that finely keen edge that you are seeking. I now utilize a Chinese 12K personally for polishing if you have any further questions regarding this natural stone.

Yepp, I'd have to agree with Dean above. I have a yellow coticule as well as a thuringen and a Shapton 16k. I've recently experimented with them all and I find the results quite similar between the coticule and the Shapton but the coticule is the smoother shaving of the two and the Shapton leave a slightly sharper edge. I finish on Chromium oxide on a flat leather bench strop.

I do have a couple of razors (out of about 26) that have responded favorably to being honed up with my Shapton hones until they are as sharp as I can get them, then I drop back to the Coticule for a few laps with a light slurry, then pure clean water and that seems to soften the harsh edge on those razors and yet they are sharper than what I've been able to do with the Coticule alone... but the pre Shapton results from the Coticule alone was just fine.... only not as sharp as I can get now.

I like the Shapton for it's speed and reliability.... but I'd never give up my Coticule and if forced to pick one hone, it would be the Yellow Coticule for me.

Regards

Christian

I use a CH12K as a finisher and am more than pleased. Many may call it blasphemy but it polishes every bit as well as my vintage Escher :eek:

I think that some of the negatives that you have read were from folks that had spent double or triple the cost of the CH12K before they heard about it or had tried one.

Well, since many of the hones you listed are natural stones, there's also the issue of variability. My CH12k is as fine as some of my Thuringians. I have a Coticule that is the hardest hone I've ever used and is as coarse as most Belgian Blues, but then another one is almost too soft and polishes better than the CH12k. One of my "regular" thuringians is finer than one of my Eschers, but not the others. And then there's the Japanese hones that run the full range of characteristics depending on what your looking for.

Confused? :p

There are many routes that lead to "the best edge", but your current setup is good enough that you may want to consider any further acquisitions to be for the sake of experimentation rather than purely for improvement.

I totally agree with Russel.

Natural stones are totally variable.

The chinese 12K is a big heavy hone that is a bargain and it does a really good job.

Some natural hones are better some are worse but generally, the natural hones are nicer to use.

In the recent "new escher" threads I have been responsible for causing some of your confusion.

My Escher is better than my coticule and I have said so loud and clear. Quite clearly other members have coticules that are better than their Eschers.

Do you know I'm so sad, I will go and buy a new coticule just to see if I can better the Escher.

Or maybe, just maybe, I will buy a japanese finishing stone off Old School before they have all gone.

All these finishing hones are fantastic and often it can be the skill of the user more than the hone.

You will not go wrong with the Chinese 12k and if you buy a more expensive natural stone and don't like it, you will be able to trade it on the classifieds and not loose much at all.

The variability of the grit on natural stones, is the exact reason that I don't prefer them... My slightly OCD brain just can't handle that, I need to know that my finishing hone is measured at 16k or 12k or 30k....
At $99 I personally think that the Shapton 16k is one of the best values out there....

There I just spent my 2 pennies :D

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Originally Posted by English

Do you know I'm so sad, I will go and buy a new coticule just to see if I can better the Escher.

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You're not sad in the least. Or, I'm just as sad as you are.

Isn't that the truth though? I can not resist buying or trying to buy coticules to see how they compare to the ones I have. They're all good, but some are stellar. For me it's like culling the good from the herd if I find an exceptional one to replace it. I have a great vintage Thuringian, but one of my vintage coticules absolutely spanks that Thuringian hands down.

Yep, definitely variation in the natural stones.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The variability of the grit on natural stones, is the exact reason that I don't prefer them... My slightly OCD brain just can't handle that, I need to know that my finishing hone is measured at 16k or 12k or 30k....
At $99 I personally think that the Shapton 16k is one of the best values out there....

There I just spent my 2 pennies :D

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Glen you could make a living testing and grit-rating natural stones for dealers with the OCD on your side

Here's my story. It 'll flirt with the boundaries of the topic, but I think you might make something out of it.

I own 3 DMT's: the 325 and the 600 models with the embedded hones, the 1200 with a continuous surface.
I own 3 Belgian Blue Whestones, 1 vintage coticule of Ebay, 4 coticules that I purchased from Ardennes Coticule. And a whole bunch more that I cut and lapped from raw coticule rocks, picked up at various closed mining sites.
I also own a Nakayama from Old_School.
A loom strop with CrO on one side and Dovo red paste on the other.
A Dovo hanging strop with a nice linen side, and a HandAmerican red latigo strop with a felt strap on the backside.
That's it. For now.:o

This is my experience:
I can get a decent bevel with any razor, whatever the starting condition, with the DMT's. (usually going no coarser than just the DMT1200). I have learned that, using the progressive honing approach, there is a certain "landing zone" you need to hit with each hone before proceding to the next. Fail to do that, and it shows up in the end result.
That said, I find the DMT's, once properly broken in, to have a fairly comfortable "landing zone". (Let's agree we are talking among experienced honers here;))

After that, depending on my mood, I usually hit a Belgian Blue Whetstone, with a light slurry.
I find my blues, and a few others I've been able to try, to behave all very consistently the same.
They also have, again in my experience, a fairly easy "landing zone". Start a polish on the edge and refine it a degree further till it maxes out.

At that point I have no choice but to hit the coticule. Water only, 'cause at this stage slurry will actually reduce sharpness. (believe me, I have tried them all, and it's a consistent and swift effect on every coticule I used).
For smoothness, the landing zone is large. It does not matter much which particular Coticule I use.
For keenness, it's a different story. A Coticule with water only, does not have great edge refining ability. For sure, the resulting edge after about 70 laps can certainly be called shaveready and I guess any isolated shaver on a remote island would have a lifetime of happy shaves with the aforesaid honing method. But honing expectations easily become contaminated by too much SRP reading. So I've tried every possible trick to squeeze a bit of extra keenness out of the coticules. Found a small margin of differences in my herd of coticules. Discovered that a secundary bevel can maximize the efforts, certainly if the razor has a broad bevel.

A logical question at that point is: what lies beyond the Coticules?
Dovo red paste improves the keenness, but that has to be paid with a harsher and less comfortable edge.
Chromium oxide can improve keenness, but only if the edge is allowed some convexity. Subsequent touch-ups quickly convex it into roundness, and to make matters worse, I have found CrO pasted edges to deteriorate within a few shaves. (It seems that I'm not alone with that experience). I also find that CrO has a difficult landing zone: I find it very difficult to adjust my loom strop and also rather unpredictable how much laps I need to do to get premium results. While I am pretty confident about what to expect from a shave straight of the coticule, it's always anxiously awaiting what my CrO sessions yield.

Hence my desire to add another stone to the equasion. A Nakayama bought from our very own, noble Old_School. This stone is a true delight to use. Edges are, to my face, very consistently as comfortable as my very best coticule honed edges. The "landing zone" is bigger, and in such way that I can land more of my razors on it. In other words: with the Nakayama I can hone, with ease, more razors to the level that some of my razors were able to hit right of the coticule.
But I still have sharpness desires. Could be just me. Could be my beard. But I doubt it.
Based upon much reading, I suspect that synthetic hones, the Shaptons up front, are able to produce a cleaner (sharper) edge, albeit much harsher.

So maybe the question should not be: "what do I need to add after the coticule?" but "What can I add before the coticule?", could be an equally valid question. Certainly if you feel that your edges leave something to be desired on the sharpness level, rather than on the smoothness level.

I hope this all makes some sense to you.

Bart, currently contemplating the purchase of a synthetic hone.

OK I have 2 more pennies to spend, I am not sure where the misconception has arisen that the Shapton 16k leaves a harsh edge????
I have seen it twice today, I would respectfully disagree on this, however I would add that if you try and "Sharpen" with it you will get a harsh edge.... Shaptons do cut more aggressively, and you can go farther than you could with other finishing hones, so you have to be more aware that you are only polishing the edge..... Basically a maximum of 20 light laps should be all that are necessary on a 16k, if it isn't sharp enough then, you didn't do the pre-sharpening right..... Again this is JMHO here....

Bart, do you use a yellow belgian between the blue and the nakayama in your progression or do you just go straight to the nakayama from the blue?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK I have 2 more pennies to spend, I am not sure where the misconception has arisen that the Shapton 16k leaves a harsh edge????
I have seen it twice today, I would respectfully disagree on this, however I would add that if you try and "Sharpen" with it you will get a harsh edge.... Shaptons do cut more aggressively, and you can go farther than you could with other finishing hones, so you have to be more aware that you are only polishing the edge..... Basically a maximum of 20 light laps should be all that are necessary on a 16k, if it isn't sharp enough then, you didn't do the pre-sharpening right..... Again this is JMHO here....

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I agree 100%. I routinely shave with razors off the 16K Shapton, and they deliver nice shaves. I find a little CrOx immediately after honing makes things very comfortable. I have found that edge sharpness off the 16K is not an issue.

I've recently purchased a vintage Escher Blue/green and look forward to comparing it to the 16K Shapton.

As, in my eyes, it is somewhat relevant to the subject at hand >here< are some pictures of bevels with different stones Zowda took during a test. Reposting just in case some people have yet to see them.

You can scroll down and click on a link that leads to pictures of the different >edges< as well.
Wish someone with the time, passion and hardware could do it with some more stones, if for no other reason that it wiggles my jibbles to watch the pictures. Personally I'm very partial towards the 16k Shap

Edit: ahh, looking at that no slurry 12k Chinese bevel picture makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK I have 2 more pennies to spend, I am not sure where the misconception has arisen that the Shapton 16k leaves a harsh edge????
I have seen it twice today, I would respectfully disagree on this, however I would add that if you try and "Sharpen" with it you will get a harsh edge.... Shaptons do cut more aggressively, and you can go farther than you could with other finishing hones, so you have to be more aware that you are only polishing the edge..... Basically a maximum of 20 light laps should be all that are necessary on a 16k, if it isn't sharp enough then, you didn't do the pre-sharpening right..... Again this is JMHO here....

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Glen,
Sorry If I insulted the Shapton Gods with my assumption that synthetic hones leave a harsher edge.
(Luckily I find myself under the protection of Coticule, a most powerful earthly Demon):D
If you read my usual overly long writing well, you know that everything I said about non-diamond synthetic hones is all based upon forum rumors, although I was not addressing the Shapton 16K directly. I also think that "harshness" and "too sharp" are very close related, once we start talking about ultra-keen razors. I believe that the often reported harshness of a Feather blade is a totally different thing than the grittiness of an insufficiently polished DMT1200 edge, or a fallen apart wire edge for that matter. Maybe the inherent smoothness of many natural hones, and Coticules in peculiar, has a lot to do with their tendency to "massage" some ever so slight roundness to the edge. If you have sharpness to spare, that can be just the feature you need for a comfortable edge. I don't know. All I know is that after a year of intensive, obsessive yet methodous honing trial and error with only Belgian hones on a DMT1200-produced bevel, I believe I find myself at the barrier of what is physically possible with my combination of hones. My dilemma at the moment is whether I am going to add a Shapton 16K after the coticule, or a Naniwa 10K before the coticule, or a Shapton 8K before, or...????:gthJust accept that my edges are great as the are:roflmao?
Anyway, my apologies for the Shapton offence.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Bart, do you use a yellow belgian between the blue and the nakayama in your progression or do you just go straight to the nakayama from the blue?

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I have tried many combinations. The nakayma with a slurry and without. Right off the Belgian Blue, after the yellow with slurry, after the blue and the yellow with water. In general, slurry on my Nakayama speeds things up without a noticeable downside. (although I usually take my time and hone without slurry on the Nakayama). It takes considered more laps after the yellow with slurry to gain the loss of keenness back. Right after the blue is quicker. After a blue and a coticule with water, it takes very few laps before the results max out, depending a bit on how good the results after the Coticule turned out. Either way, all methods lead to the same great edges in the end.
At the moment, I'm running a set of experiments, honing 2 groups of 4 Double Arrows. They all are honed till the Blue level, then two layers of tape are added and they each receive 20 laps on one of three Coticules or the Nakayama.
This creates a microbevel carying only the scratch pattern of the finishing hone. The razors are compared, two at once (left side of face against right side), group A by myself, group B by a straight shaving pall. First results show that the edges are all very close within range, high up in the quality zone that we are generally able to reach, apart from using CrO.
For creating such a tiny microbevel 20 laps are plenty, but with normal honing, depending on the width of the actual bevel, I need to do much more than that.

Bart.

That was great Bart...:roflmao:roflmao
I am still laughing my friend, I did just have to sacrifice a vestal virgin the the Shapton Gods though :D

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The variability of the grit on natural stones, is the exact reason that I don't prefer them...

I need to know that my finishing hone is measured at 16k or 12k or 30k...

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But what does that do for the steel?

;)

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But what does that do for the steel?

;)

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The steel knows......;) trust me it knows :roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Well, since many of the hones you listed are natural stones, there's also the issue of variability. My CH12k is as fine as some of my Thuringians. I have a Coticule that is the hardest hone I've ever used and is as coarse as most Belgian Blues, but then another one is almost too soft and polishes better than the CH12k. One of my "regular" thuringians is finer than one of my Eschers, but not the others. And then there's the Japanese hones that run the full range of characteristics depending on what your looking for.

Confused? :p

There are many routes that lead to "the best edge", but your current setup is good enough that you may want to consider any further acquisitions to be for the sake of experimentation rather than purely for improvement.

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This is exactly the kind of post that makes me shy away from natural hones. I want to have some idea what sort of stone I will be buying.

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Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

This is exactly the kind of post that makes me shy away from natural hones. I want to have some idea what sort of stone I will be buying.

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OK, here comes the "troublemaker" ... a lot of these hone discussions remind me of audiophiles arguing about equipment that reproduces frequency ranges that the human ear (or at least mine) is not capable of hearing. For many years I went from a Swaty to the strop and the results were fine. Now, that I've been educated by SRP, I go from a coticule to a four-sided paddle strop with Dovo Red, Dovo Black, chromium oxide and 0.25 micron diamond paste. I am delighted with the results. I recently bought a Chinese 12K out of curiousity but it didn't improve anything so I don't use it anymore. I'm not criticizing those who have made hones into a hobby. All I wanted to do was to find a system that gave me BBS with no irritation. Having found that, I'm moving on and won't be experimenting with any more hones.

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Originally Posted by Chimensch

OK, here comes the "troublemaker" ... a lot of these hone discussions remind me of audiophiles arguing about equipment that reproduces frequency ranges that the human ear (or at least mine) is not capable of hearing. For many years I went from a Swaty to the strop and the results were fine. Now, that I've been educated by SRP, I go from a coticule to a four-sided paddle strop with Dovo Red, Dovo Black, chromium oxide and 0.25 micron diamond paste. I am delighted with the results. I recently bought a Chinese 12K out of curiousity but it didn't improve anything so I don't use it anymore. I'm not criticizing those who have made hones into a hobby. All I wanted to do was to find a system that gave me BBS with no irritation. Having found that, I'm moving on and won't be experimenting with any more hones.

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I do wonder about how much people argue the benefits of their many hones and razors needing different hones as a method of justifying all the hones that they own.

Like you my goal is a smooth confortable shave. So I have no desire to buy many many hones, which is part of why I think I want to lean toward synthetic hones instead of natural as it seems that people who have say numbers of coticule's note that one of them is so coarse it is like an entirely different stone.

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Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

Like you my goal is a smooth confortable shave. So I have no desire to buy many many hones...

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But I just read him say that his results before were fine, yet he bought more honing equipment and began experiencing better shaves :shrug:
You'll never know what lies beyond unless you venture out :D

Well, with that title, I'm sure that my crucifixion is immanent! When it comes to natural stones, the only sensible approach is to deal with a reputable, knowledgeable dealer. Our own Howard of The Perfect Edge has decades of experience with Belgian stones and has seen thousands. If you explain what you are trying to achieve, he can suggest a stone for you . The highest grade of Coticules with any size to them is Kosher Grade. There is a higher grade but it comes in small pieces only usable to hone small chisels like Japanese cabinet makers like to work with. Two other authorities are Gerhard (Gary) Richter of Timbertools in Canada and Rob Celis who owns the Coticule mine in the Ardennes. When it comes to German Natural Water Hones there are a number of knowledgable people here at the SRP. The newer stones are being actively sold by Timbertools and The Perfect Edge. Vintage German Water Hones are another story. I have owned, sold and traded many of these stones and can tell you that they are superb finishing stones. I am witholding myself from saying that they are the best because I am waiting for our own O_S to find me a Japanese Natural Nakayama Karasu Water Hone which he promises me will rock my world! And that brings me to the next subject. If European Natural Water Hones are a complicated, dark labarynth Japanese Natural Hones are impossible to understand without being guided by a Master Japanese Honemeister. Our own revered O_S is the person that I believe has the trust of the SRP brotherhood although perhaps other members can lenghten the list. Finally, the subject of synthetic stones come up. The Norton 4K/8K is the stone that most members start with. If properly used, an edge can be obtained off the 8K side that will yield a respectable shave after stropping. Our founder Lynn Abrams who has honed more razors than anyone that I know uses this stone as his starting point. Most of us know of his famous Pyramid honing scheme. The Shapton stones are another question. They cut faster than any natural stone. The reason why this is so is that the cutting element in the Coticules is very fine Garnet at about 15 to 35%, in a clay/volcanic ash matrix, in the Eschers the cutting element is Silica, SiO2, at about 15 to 35% in a chalk matrix but in the Shaptons the cutting element is a ceramic, the next hardest substance next to diamonds known to man. And the % of cutting element is about 80% or more in a polymeric matrix! This is typical for composites, the less organic binder the better the performance. Lastly, lapping stones. I've used the DMT 325 grit lapping plate for years. It works well but has two disadvantages 1) it is slow for a lapping stone requiring many hundreds of strokes to properly lap a hone and 2) stones have a tendency to "stick" to the DMT due to the surface free energy inherent to the swarf. I recently acquired a Shapton DGLP and WOW, what a phenominal leap forward this lapping stone provides. Not only is the flattest thing imaginable but it cuts super fast compared to the DMT and there is NO, I repeat NO tendency of the stone that you are lapping to "stick" to it, what a relief! Now I readily admit that my favorite thing to do in this wonderful hobby is lapping stones, go figure, but I love it. Now with my Shapton DGLP it has become, well, I can't really say it on a public forum, so let's stick with Dreamy. :) There is my 3 cents worth!

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Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

I do wonder about how much people argue the benefits of their many hones and razors needing different hones as a method of justifying all the hones that they own.

Like you my goal is a smooth confortable shave. So I have no desire to buy many many hones, which is part of why I think I want to lean toward synthetic hones instead of natural as it seems that people who have say numbers of coticule's note that one of them is so coarse it is like an entirely different stone.

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A certain type of steel does behave differently depending on the stone that sharpened it. The rate that a stone abrades steel is a major contributor to the kind of edge that is left; A steel with lots of abrasion resisting alloying elements requires an aggressive stone to achieve a nice edge, but that same stone will leave a ragged edge on a softer blade made of simple steel. The difference isn't night and day, but it's there. The hardness/softness of a stone also affects the edge depending on the type and hardness of the steel, and in many cases brittle steel requires a stone that's gentle so as to avoid microchipping.

About the coticule, the ones that are said to be really coarse (at least in my case) are ones that I've picked up on ebay. If you were to go through a reputable vendor (like Howard), they would be able to tell you for sure that a certain stone is worth using as a finishing hone on razors. No guess-work what-so-ever. :)

But as far as the original thread is concerned, pastes generally cover up whatever hone was used prior to the paste and render most edges about as good as can be, so there is very little to gain by going from a coticule to a slightly finer finishing stone and then finishing off with the paste, the difference probably won't be noticeable.

Russell, Tim Zowada reports that going from the Coticule to the Escher to the pastes does produce a positive, noticeable difference. I have to say that this is my experience as well. Actually, I use the Belgian Blue Stone with a slurry instead of a Norton 4K, a Coticule with only water instead of a Norton 8K and then finish on an Escher B/G followed by an Eacher Y/G followed by a 0.5 micron Cr2O3 3M Mylar film followed by a horse shell leather strop. A lot of work but it pays off.

It just depends on how many laps you do on the CrO paste, throwing in a finer stone just decreases the number of passes you have to do on the paste to get to the same result.

It's like saying that jumping from the Belgian Blue to a Y/G Escher is nice but throwing a coticule in the middle makes things much better, you just haven't abraded as much material off with the first method.

The edge doesn't care how it gets down to that ~.4 micron width, right. ;)

Does the path one takes matter or is it immaterial. Boy, that's one that everyone in the material science of metals grapples with. I haven't spent much time studying metals but I have studied polymers a good bit and I can tell you that the path that one takes to get from state A to state B seems to be the determining factor in the development of the final properties. From what I've read about metals, the situation is similar. About the only things that I know about that are path independent are Thermodynamic State Functions, in fact, path independence is a requirement for a function to be a TSF. In short, I wouldn't bet the farm that it doesn't matter how one gets from one point to another, in fact the great variability in the results obtained by one honer versus another is probably caused by this path dependence of getting from A to B. It is also probably at the root as why one technique and one set of stones works great with one razor and not with another

But we're talking about abrading steel off of a blade, not about playing with it's thermodynamic properties. The properties aren't changing, just how much metal that is at the edge of the bevel.

You can remove the same amount of material with a chinese 12k as you can with a DMT D8C, it'll just take you a few years and the properties of the steel will be no different.

If there is a difference, what would it be?

Either the hardness, grain, or composition of the steel would have to change to alter the blade's edge properties, which doesn't occur unless there are harsh chemicals involved or extreme heat.

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Originally Posted by blaireau

It is also probably at the root as why one technique and one set of stones works great with one razor and not with another

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I went into this a little bit above and there is some truth to it. It boils down to what gets the maximum potential out of the steel in question, but as long as the edge is the same final width (the upper bound that the steel matrix will sustain), the lower grit stones don't make a bit of difference.

When you are dealing with energy you are dealing with different forms of it. These forms can be transformed into each other but they are fundamentally different. We are applying mechanical energy into the metal. This can have a similar effect as if we were applying thermal energy. In fact, some chemists are investigating how to drive chemical reactions mechanically instead of the old standby of thermal energy. I recently was awarded a provisional patent using mechanical energy to create Perovskite ceramics for High Temperature Superconductors by using a relatively new chemical process called reactive milling. If you're interested in this, Google Professor Serge Kaliaguine of Laval University in Quebec, Canada or Professor Jeffrey Moore of the University of Illinois, you may find it interesting.

To Pondering Turtle..................

I noticed some jibes about justifying the hones we own.

Just for the record, mine were very inexpensive and they are unbelievably good.

But if you choose to believe we enjoy our hobby as a money sport, I suggest that you go and join the Gillette brigade and really make an investment in shaving technology.

There you will find a kindred spirit. With sarcastic prices to match your tongue.:nono:

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Originally Posted by blaireau

When you are dealing with energy you are dealing with different forms of it. These forms can be transformed into each other but they are fundamentally different. We are applying mechanical energy into the metal. This can have a similar effect as if we were applying thermal energy.

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I understand this fully, my belt grinder will ruin the temper on a razor (along with my fingers at that point) in a matter of seconds with enough pressure.

But unless you can show that honing a razor makes the edge exceed 500 degrees fahrenheit (:eek: ) , there is no change in the steel's properties.

I believe I see Rich's point. Exposing the edge to the abrasive is how we progress from a dull to a keen edge. Taking a razor with the bevel well defined and progressively finishing it to leave a "comfortable" edge is obviously the task at hand.

But certain materials respond differently to different hones. Given that a Natural stone has a certain amount of material that is actually abrasive to material that is the "filler" or carrier that makes up the hone, defines the rate at which the edge will be worked "per stroke".

Using a man-made hone such as the Shapton which has a MUCH greater amount of abrasive available to the edge will certainly speed up the job but in some cases may actually cause some materials to chip. Using a slower cutting stone would allow you to approach the limit that the edge will actually support. Giving you more control over how well the edge is defined.

If the material actually doesn't change- WHY then, do some hones work better than others on a given razor.

OR is this an example of just the SKILL the person honing the edge actually exhibits? Does that make any sense?:thinking:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

But I just read him say that his results before were fine, yet he bought more honing equipment and began experiencing better shaves :shrug:
You'll never know what lies beyond unless you venture out :D

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Exactly. I wrote my original post last night when I was extremely tired and it came out much crankier (nastier) than I meant. What I wanted to say was that, at a certain point, continued refinements become imperceptible and then you stop. For example, having tried the Chinese 12K and found no improvement, I'm no longer worried that I'm missing some great step forward if I don't have a Thuringian, Escher or one of OLD_SCHOOL's Japanese hones. Not because there isn't a difference but because I probably won't preceive it.

I also have to give credit to all of you "researchers" who pointed me in the right direction, especially gssixgun who helped me put the pastes in the right order.

My objective is a good shave (no, it's a great shave) but, for me, honing is somewhat of an annoyance and a means to an end. At the end of the day, I want to be able to hone my own razors and then I want that hone to gather as much dust as possible!

It's all in the wrist action. (OK but it's late and I'm tired..........:w)

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

A certain type of steel does behave differently depending on the stone that sharpened it. The rate that a stone abrades steel is a major contributor to the kind of edge that is left; A steel with lots of abrasion resisting alloying elements requires an aggressive stone to achieve a nice edge, but that same stone will leave a ragged edge on a softer blade made of simple steel. The difference isn't night and day, but it's there. The hardness/softness of a stone also affects the edge depending on the type and hardness of the steel, and in many cases brittle steel requires a stone that's gentle so as to avoid microchipping.

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I am not saying that a stone will cut all razors the same, or that some razors would respond to different techniques, but I think that the level some members claim, it seems to be very psychological.

Like those people who buy $3,000 speaker cables because they can hear the difference, and to an extent they do hear something that sounds better in their mind. Rather like a study showed that peoples brains respond differently when drinking the same wine if told it cost $10 vs when told it cost $90. With the pleasure centers lighting up longer for the $90 wine, when it was entirely the same.

So while there was no difference, those people certainly precieved a difference, because their perceptions were shaped by their understanding of the cost of the wine.

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Originally Posted by blaireau

When you are dealing with energy you are dealing with different forms of it. These forms can be transformed into each other but they are fundamentally different. We are applying mechanical energy into the metal. This can have a similar effect as if we were applying thermal energy. In fact, some chemists are investigating how to drive chemical reactions mechanically instead of the old standby of thermal energy. I recently was awarded a provisional patent using mechanical energy to create Perovskite ceramics for High Temperature Superconductors by using a relatively new chemical process called reactive milling. If you're interested in this, Google Professor Serge Kaliaguine of Laval University in Quebec, Canada or Professor Jeffrey Moore of the University of Illinois, you may find it interesting.

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But with steel, the ways that mechanical stresses can effect it are well studied. You could concievably work harden it, by stressing it beyond its elastic limit, causing a permenant deformation. This will change the material properties of the steel.

But I can't see why it would matter if you say milled steel away vs ground it away as long as the stresses on the steel stay well below the elastic limit outside of the cutting area, and you do not let the steel heat up enough.

Metal fatigue and other changed in the properties of metals through mechanical action has been studied for a century.

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Originally Posted by English

To Pondering Turtle..................

I noticed some jibes about justifying the hones we own.

Just for the record, mine were very inexpensive and they are unbelievably good.

But if you choose to believe we enjoy our hobby as a money sport, I suggest that you go and join the Gillette brigade and really make an investment in shaving technology.

There you will find a kindred spirit. With sarcastic prices to match your tongue.:nono:

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Sure and tell the audiophile that in blind tests his $3,000 speaker connections performed no better than wire coat hangers at transmitting the signal, and see how many audiophiles will let you hang around regardless of what they personaly have spent.

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Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

If the material actually doesn't change- WHY then, do some hones work better than others on a given razor.

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One, what is your evidence that it does?

And the other is that as the razors start with different properties and hardnesses you would not expect them to respond exactly the same, even though its properties are not changed.

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Originally Posted by PonderingTurtle

I am not saying that a stone will cut all razors the same, or that some razors would respond to different techniques, but I think that the level some members claim, it seems to be very psychological.

Like those people who buy $3,000 speaker cables because they can hear the difference, and to an extent they do hear something that sounds better in their mind. Rather like a study showed that peoples brains respond differently when drinking the same wine if told it cost $10 vs when told it cost $90. With the pleasure centers lighting up longer for the $90 wine, when it was entirely the same.

So while there was no difference, those people certainly precieved a difference, because their perceptions were shaped by their understanding of the cost of the wine.

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Respectfully, I totally disagree. When you place a razor against your face and during the shave it cuts the whiskers, yet turns skin into hamburger because of its lack of smoothness-its NOT psychological.

Take a strop pasted with .25 diamond paste and go to town-chances are a sharp,yet harsh edge will result.Can you shave with a edge directly off an 8K Norton-absolutely, some may even find it comfortable. This is were advanced honing really counts-there are many roads to acheiving a keen comfortable edge. Does it take a mega buck Japanese hone? How can you judge it , if you haven't shaved with THAT razor?

Your face is full of nerve endings that WILL TELL YOU if you did a good job. Its not in your "mind"