Vintage Coticule?

Ok, I don't want to get jumped on here, but I've been talking to distributors, (not mentioning any names) and I was told that there's little or no difference in Vintage Coticule vs the New Coticles being quarried today.
I've seen posts on other forums talking about Garnet content being higher on the vintage stones.
I've never seen anything concrete to prove that. I could be wrong, and if someone can tell me different please do.

Considering the fact that these stones are 400,000,000 years old, what difference would 100 years make. I've read that the best stones have all ready been quarried. I find that hard to believe too.
I can understand that owning an older Coticule may have some intrinsic value, but are they actually better?

I really don't know the answer to you question but it is a common occurance with any economically valuable mineral that over time the ore is worked out.Look at the Gold mines in California and Alaska and the Diamond deposits in South Africa which keep expanding. The quarries in japan that produced the famed honing stones are pretty much gone except for lesser quality stones. As you go through the target rock and mine it out it usually follows a vein or a larger sill or dike in the rock and as you come to the end of the structure the quality deteriorates. There are some ares with really massive rock like Gore Mountain in N.Y which is basically a sold Garnet and has been mined for years for abrasives.

I agree with you and appreciate your answer, However, Rob's quarry is hardly mined out. I read a post on badger and blade and the Gentleman was saying that his vintage coticule had 50-60% garnet content, as opposed to the newer stones 30-40%. I've been told by reputable sources in the industry, this is a complete falsehood. As I said, when your talking 400 million years, what's 100?

My intuition tells me that there would be no difference in vintage and new coticules. I agree that if the quarry was somewhat "mined out", then the quality of the stone produced now would be of less. But, if there is still a large amount left to mine, I don't see why the coticule mined today would be any different than that mined 100 years ago. But, as I said, that's just my intuition. I also read a theory that there was more coticule available 100 years ago (for whatever reason), so they could be more selective, only choosing the best quality. To be honest, I'm not sure what's true, but I wouldn't hesitate ordering a new coticule, I'm sure they perform just as well! :D

Dave

I don't know the answer to that either. I have a really nice vintage natural and it is a great hone but my favorite coticule is a natural of recent vintage. A friend sold it to me. He got it from Howard at the Perfect Edge and I assume Howard got it from Rob at Ardennes Coticule. I asked Rob the same question on vintage versus current production and here was his reply. If you want to read the whole thread there is a lot of good info in it and it is here .

I don't think coticules were as desirable as gold or other precious metals (even though they are worth more to me!), so they weren't mined as heavily, and consequently, not used up.

As far as garnet content in older stones being higher... I don't buy it. Hell, it's all about the same age, it's just when it was dug up.

"Vintage" coticule vs. new....pfft.

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage.":gaah: Every one of them is different. Each one of them behaves slightly differently because of the simple fact that each of them actually is different. New or old, if your hone does not share saw marks with one of my hones, then your hone is going to be different from mine.
They're all different.
That is the nature of a natural hone, also known as a piece of ROCK.

The only reason why I think that there are people saying that vintage Coticule stones are better for straight razor use then new Coticule stones is the following:

Most of the vintage Coticule stones that you guys find on eBay or in your local antique store are stones used by barbers or by private straight razor users. The Coticule miner companies from 100 years ago selected these stones specially for the use of straight razors. Before World War 2 there was a large exportation of Coticule stones for straight razor use to the USA and UK. So most of the vintage Coticule stones you guys are finding in the USA and UK are perfect stones for straight razors!

After World Ward 2 there only was a small exportation to the USA and this came to an end around 1960-1980. Around 1960 the last mine closed and in the '80's the last quarry went broke. So a lot of the Coticule knowledge disappeared (knowledge in terms of 'which Coticule is good for which use').

We, Ardennes Coticule, officially restarted the last quarry in 1998 and are planning to re-open the last mine in 2009. In our family (Ardennes Coticule is a family business) we have a lot of knowledge about quarrying and mining (The Coticule quarry and mine aren't our first quarry and mine) but we didn't had much knowledge about the Coticule stone (both in terms of the use and the distribution world wide).

So in the very beginning we sold every Coticule for every purpose. None of our family members knew that for example straight razor users preferred softer stones and wood workers the harder ones!
We had to learn all this from unsatisfied customers, from talks with Coticule users from the old days and so on ... .
The Coticule stones sold by us in the beginning of our company are Coticule stones from an excellent quality but were sold for the wrong purpose (example: not soft enough for straight razor use)!
But that's the past. Right now costumers have to specify the purpose of their stone and they will receive the right Coticule stone!
All the stones sold by our USA and UK distributors for straight razor use are excellent for that very purpose and are even good as the vintage Coticule stones!

But keep in mind that we are working with natural stones! All the stones are unique and sometimes we have Coticule stones that are extremely soft and that contain a very high concentration of garnets.
If you got a vintage Coticule like this you could easily say that it's better than a 'new' Coticule but you can also find a vintage Coticule which is harder and/or contains less garnets then a 'newer' one.
So I'm sure you guys understand that there are Coticule stones floating around in the straight razor community that are less suitable for this use. Are these stones bad? No, they are excellent Coticule stones, but not suitable for straight razor use.

It all depends on the vein from which the Coticule comes!

More info: Coticule Layer Round Up - Part 1 (Warning - 62 pictures) - Badger & Blade

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big :) from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big :) from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

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I actually had the same experience with the one "vintage" natural combo coticule I have on hand. It cuts pretty fast and rough (especially compared to the Spyderco UF), and I have to hone under running water to "polish" with it or it will wreck a final edge.

That being said, once I got the hang of it, I grew to really like that stone.

I am getting another one from ArdennesCoticule pretty soon, so it will be fun to compare the 2 in a honing head to head.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage.":gaah:

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Big LOL :rofl2: I had to sit here a minute and figure out why "natural of recent vintage" was "oddly put". Indeed the rock is as old as the that of earlier vintage. I should have said recently quarried or harvested.

Obviously Ron does not have a problem with HAD. He has nine vintage combo coticules ....... like any normal person. :D

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage.":gaah: Every one of them is different. Each one of them behaves slightly differently because of the simple fact that each of them actually is different. New or old, if your hone does not share saw marks with one of my hones, then your hone is going to be different from mine.
They're all different.
That is the nature of a natural hone, also known as a piece of ROCK.

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Natures quality control does not work according to our standards, wether the stone is sedimentary or igneous she pretty much lets the raw material do as it will in accordance with the natural forces influencing it at the moment. Even two pieces of stone cut from a single piece of stone will have differences, sometimes large, some times small. No body is controlling the mix, the quality of any piece of stone is wholly arbitrary! As for vintage vs newly marketed, this would have to be fallacy, its all from the same time period, the same mix and the same natural influencess over the years.

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Natures quality control does not work according to our standards, wether the stone is sedimentary or igneous she pretty much lets the raw material do as it will in accordance with the natural forces influencing it at the moment. Even two pieces of stone cut from a single piece of stone will have differences, sometimes large, some times small. No body is controlling the mix, the quality of any piece of stone is wholly arbitrary! As for vintage vs newly marketed, this would have to be fallacy, its all from the same time period, the same mix and the same natural influencess over the years.

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The word "igneous" being unfamiliar to me,I googled it. Found this interesting website ,among many others, here for anyone who is interested in a bit of geology. I must have been looking out the window daydreaming when they were teaching this in school. :thinking:

All I remember about that from junior high science was igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic are the three types of rocks--just in case you want to do a little more googling!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

All I remember about that from junior high science was igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic are the three types of rocks--just in case you want to do a little more googling!

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I forgot to mention meta morphic, I mustve been sitting in class looking out the window at that time, or was It suzie that caught my eye?;)

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I forgot to mention meta morphic, I mustve been sitting in class looking out the window at that time, or was It suzie that caught my eye?;)

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Back then I would have been more interested in Suzie's metamorphosis too. :D

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Originally Posted by ArdennesCoticule

The only reason why I think that there are people saying that vintage Coticule stones are better for straight razor use then new Coticule stones is the following:

Most of the vintage Coticule stones that you guys find on eBay or in your local antique store are stones used by barbers or by private straight razor users. The Coticule miner companies from 100 years ago selected these stones specially for the use of straight razors. Before World War 2 there was a large exportation of Coticule stones for straight razor use to the USA and UK. So most of the vintage Coticule stones you guys are finding in the USA and UK are perfect stones for straight razors!

After World Ward 2 there only was a small exportation to the USA and this came to an end around 1960-1980. Around 1960 the last mine closed and in the '80's the last quarry went broke. So a lot of the Coticule knowledge disappeared (knowledge in terms of 'which Coticule is good for which use').

We, Ardennes Coticule, officially restarted the last quarry in 1998 and are planning to re-open the last mine in 2009. In our family (Ardennes Coticule is a family business) we have a lot of knowledge about quarrying and mining (The Coticule quarry and mine aren't our first quarry and mine) but we didn't had much knowledge about the Coticule stone (both in terms of the use and the distribution world wide).

So in the very beginning we sold every Coticule for every purpose. None of our family members knew that for example straight razor users preferred softer stones and wood workers the harder ones!
We had to learn all this from unsatisfied customers, from talks with Coticule users from the old days and so on ... .
The Coticule stones sold by us in the beginning of our company are Coticule stones from an excellent quality but were sold for the wrong purpose (example: not soft enough for straight razor use)!
But that's the past. Right now costumers have to specify the purpose of their stone and they will receive the right Coticule stone!
All the stones sold by our USA and UK distributors for straight razor use are excellent for that very purpose and are even good as the vintage Coticule stones!

But keep in mind that we are working with natural stones! All the stones are unique and sometimes we have Coticule stones that are extremely soft and that contain a very high concentration of garnets.
If you got a vintage Coticule like this you could easily say that it's better than a 'new' Coticule but you can also find a vintage Coticule which is harder and/or contains less garnets then a 'newer' one.
So I'm sure you guys understand that there are Coticule stones floating around in the straight razor community that are less suitable for this use. Are these stones bad? No, they are excellent Coticule stones, but not suitable for straight razor use.

It all depends on the vein from which the Coticule comes!

More info: Coticule Layer Round Up - Part 1 (Warning - 62 pictures) - Badger & Blade

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Thanks Rob!

it drives me crazy when I here guys talking about how much better the older stones are when age really makes no difference, it's the stone. A new stone can be better than the older one, just depends on the vein. Thanks again...Rich

I also got one from Howard, an 8x3, soft as butter, very nice stone.

I think there's one other reason for this vintage-coticules-are-better theme. There was a particular mine that was highly revered that closed somewhere around the end of the nineteenth century. The mine had a French name I can't remember, but coticules from this vein were called "old rock" or "deep rock." Some of the old geological textbooks from the 1920s or thereabouts say in essence 'they don't make 'em like they used to.' I think some of the old barber's textbooks from that period also say something of the sort, and maybe even Arthur Boon's (?) I seem to recall...

This meme seems to have filtered into modern discussion of coticules, but the comparison is dated, having to do with hones from the early part of the 20th century vs. hones from the 19th. There are new veins since. In fact, it seems likely that many of what we call "vintage coticules" are from the period that wasn't supposed to be so good.

I think we have to bear in mind that 50 years and longer ago, there were no Nortons, no DMT's, no Shaptons. The bulk of synthetic hones people had access to were much too coarse to be used on razors. Coticules were used as work horses. Loom strops, such as the model that Dovo sells till this day forward, were commonly used with a red paste, to refine the edge further after it came off the coticule. This traditional method of honing is still taught today on various straight razor revival courses in Belgium (and I guess also in other countries).
This use of the coticule is completely different than the on SRP mostly endorsed use of it as a finishing hone, after sharpening on hones that didn't exsist in the "vintage" days.

For the traditional use as a sharpening hone that fits in the realm of the Norton 4K and even of the DMT1200, it is imperative that the coticule in question has good slurry formation abilities. But even that doesn't tell everything. I have used coticules that raised slurry very easily, but still couldn't move hard razor's steel fast enough to be used for serious sharpening of a blunt edge. Those exact same coticules worked just fine on the softer steel of kitchen knifes. The rate at which the slurry darkens while honing is good indication for assessing the rate at which it removes steel.

On the other end of honing, for polishing an already keen edge, the coticule does not need to move steel fast. Slurry is to be avoided so the very softest stones are to be ruled out. After that, we're left with the question how much difference there is between the medium and hard stones and also if the hardness by itself tells the whole story. I don't know.
I have visited different former mining sites, climbed a few fences and took calculated health risks to pick up rocks of raw coticule. Having them cut to strips costed me more than purchasing a few hones at Ardennes (which I have also done, cheers Rob:)). It took me and my pal Kris countless hours to lap a few of the most promising samples completely flat. Among them are a few glass-hard specimen. At first, I thought they were not doing anything. Although under 40X magnification the steel shows a beautiful polished surface, the edges were always unsatisfactory.
It was not before I bought an outstanding high-grit synthetic hone (the Naniwa Chosera 10K), that I discovered the virtues of those hard coticules. They turn a fantastic edge into a freekingly fantastic edge. But, to reiterate, if you 'd expect those particular samples to improove the given keenness of an edge, then you're going to be dissapointed.

Many coticules offer a good comprise between being avid cutters with slurry and smooth polishers with water. In most cases, I am strongly convinced that the final results are much more limited by the honers skills and not so much by the hones capabilities. In the extremes, some coticules might polish a bit finer and others might cut more rapidly, but it's still the call of the honer how to use it and where to place it in a progression.

Rob, I would very much like to assess coticules for you. It would allow me to gather more empirical data about these historical hones to which I have develloped such a big fondness, and it could help you to finetune your differentiaton system.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

I think we have to bear in mind that 50 years and longer ago, there were no Nortons, no DMT's, no Shaptons. The bulk of synthetic hones people had access to were much too coarse to be used on razors. Coticules were used as work horses. Loom strops, such as the model that Dovo sells till this day forward, were commonly used with a red paste, to refine the edge further after it came off the coticule. This traditional method of honing is still taught today on various straight razor revival courses in Belgium (and I guess also in other countries).
This use of the coticule is completely different than the on SRP mostly endorsed use of it as a finishing hone, after sharpening on hones that didn't exsist in the "vintage" days.

For the traditional use as a sharpening hone that fits in the realm of the Norton 4K and even of the DMT1200, it is imperative that the coticule in question has good slurry formation abilities. But even that doesn't tell everything. I have used coticules that raised slurry very easily, but still couldn't move hard razor's steel fast enough to be used for serious sharpening of a blunt edge. Those exact same coticules worked just fine on the softer steel of kitchen knifes. The rate at which the slurry darkens while honing is good indication for assessing the rate at which it removes steel.

On the other end of honing, for polishing an already keen edge, the coticule does not need to move steel fast. Slurry is to be avoided so the very softest stones are to be ruled out. After that, we're left with the question how much difference there is between the medium and hard stones and also if the hardness by itself tells the whole story. I don't know.
I have visited different former mining sites, climbed a few fences and took calculated health risks to pick up rocks of raw coticule. Having them cut to strips costed me more than purchasing a few hones at Ardennes (which I have also done, cheers Rob:)). It took me and my pal Kris countless hours to lap a few of the most promising samples completely flat. Among them are a few glass-hard specimen. At first, I thought they were not doing anything. Although under 40X magnification the steel shows a beautiful polished surface, the edges were always unsatisfactory.
It was not before I bought an outstanding high-grit synthetic hone (the Naniwa Chosera 10K), that I discovered the virtues of those hard coticules. They turn a fantastic edge into a freekingly fantastic edge. But, to reiterate, if you 'd expect those particular samples to improove the given keenness of an edge, then you're going to be dissapointed.

Many coticules offer a good comprise between being avid cutters with slurry and smooth polishers with water. In most cases, I am strongly convinced that the final results are much more limited by the honers skills and not so much by the hones capabilities. In the extremes, some coticules might polish a bit finer and others might cut more rapidly, but it's still the call of the honer how to use it and where to place it in a progression.

Rob, I would very much like to assess coticules for you. It would allow me to gather more empirical data about these historical hones to which I have develloped such a big fondness, and it could help you to finetune your differentiaton system.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Let us know what your results are...

Bart, could you contact me through email?
Thanks

In any endeavor in which you engage, there is always an element that will say "Oh, the old stuff was much better and today's stuff is just a shadow of what once was". I've heard this with knife steels, hand tools, fishing lures, bows (archery), anviles, and firearms. It's generally a bunch of crap. Until someone has a laboratory pulverize a vintage coticule and a newly mined coticule and subjects the samples to X-ray diffraction analysis and other tests used by petrologists to determine the quantities of various minerals found in a rock, no one KNOWS anything about the quantity of garnet in coticules.

The only difference in coticules that are "vintage" is that they've been out of the same mine in the same formation 50 or 100 years. There are different grades of coticule and a euro grade that is vintage won't compare to a Select grade that is new. My opinion in this matter comes from my experience with dozens of coticules both new and vintage over the past 6 years of honing and shaving with straight razors.

To Bart,
Actually, there were Nortons 50 years ago. I'm in the middle of reading a book about the Norton Company. They were a pottery in the 1860s and then started adding emery to the clay to make grinding stones and wheels. The 1880s were marked by them and others finally figuring out how to make grinding wheels that would perform predictably and not blow up when spun up by a motor. This was "high tech" back then! Their technological prowess continued to grow through the early 1900s and by that time they had hundreds of abrasive products for all kinds of uses. They started in Worcester, MA where there were also 3 straight razor manufacturers at the time.

The book is "Family Firm to Modern Multi-National, sub-titled "Norton Company, A New England Enterprise", copyright 1985 by Charles W. Cheape, a Harvard Business School professor. I have an extra copy if anybody wants it. $15.

Howard, Thank you so much for your opinion and your great Coticules....Rich

I think we are taking a simple issue and making it complex.

So you have this deposit in the ground of unknown size. So you start mining it. Maybe its a small vein 100 feet long and 10 feet wide. In a few days its gone forever or maybe it's 10 miles square and you can mine it for 100 years. As you go through the deposit there is some variation in the quality of your target mineral or rock but it's only as you come to the end of the deposit that the quality starts to really go downhill. This is an oversimplification but that's how it pretty much goes. Very often once the mine is played out you can go to the mine dumps and pick up some pretty good stuff in very small quantities if your willing to do the work. Heck, with some very valuable deposits they have gone back and reworked the dumps to extract low concentrations of ores that could not have been extracted many years ago.

The age of a deposit has nothing to do with the quality of the stuff you get its just a matter of the size of the deposit and how much has been removed and what is left. Its just that with many mines especially very small ones the best stuff is long gone and what remains is second rate at best but that doesn't have to be the case all the time and of course as you go from mine to mine there are differences in the quality of the product even when they are nearby.

Also consider that many of the very old mines were limited by techniques at the time where great quality still exists however they just couldn't get to it because maybe a vein would plunge too deep. Also, where these mines were family owned and really small scale it was not and still is not economically feasible to continue mining.

I'm not familiar with the coticule mines so I can't comment on the specifics that's best left to Howard and they guys from Belgium.

I didn't think it would cause such a stir, I saw a post on Badger and Blade about how the Vintage Coticule stones were so much better, which IMHO is misleading.

Just to stir the pot a bit here. :D If I understand correctly, a coticule is a sedimentary rock, meaning it formed from deposits that spent a lot of time building up and compacting. So wouldn't atmospheric conditions, etc. play a roll in the quality of deposits over time? For example volcanic eruptions, flooding, droughts, would all change the quality and variety of deposits. With this in mind couldn't one argue that a "newly" formed cotucule could be of higher quality than an "older" one?

Or is it that when we talk of vintage we are purely referring to the fact that they had first choice of stones a hundred years ago regardless of the age of the stone they were mining. They essentially got to cherry pick the prime stones leaving us today with the "lesser" ones.

For what it's worth I'm just throwing this out there. I don't think that when a coticule was mined has a lot to do with it's quality. Clearly newly quarried stoned have a variety of qualities still.

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Originally Posted by JCitron

For example volcanic eruptions, flooding, droughts, would all change the quality and variety of deposits. With this in mind couldn't one argue that a "newly" formed cotucule could be of higher quality than an "older" one?

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I'm sorry to say but the answer is no ;).
Coticule stones were formed like 480 million years ago, so the +/- 40 years between the last 'old' produced stones and the newly quarried stones nowadays is peanuts.

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Originally Posted by JCitron

For what it's worth I'm just throwing this out there. I don't think that when a coticule was mined has a lot to do with it's quality. Clearly newly quarried stoned have a variety of qualities still.

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In the past there were also a lot of qualities but the general public never saw them because these stones were (and still are) used in the 'local' EU industry. The largest part of our Coticule and BBW stones are used all kinds of industry.

I had in my mind images of sediment layers, but yeah, I guess 480 million years has a way of averaging things out. :D