Thread: Vintage Coticule?

Ok, I don't want to get jumped on here, but I've been talking to distributors, (not mentioning any names) and I was told that there's little or no difference in Vintage Coticule vs the New Coticles being quarried today.
I've seen posts on other forums talking about Garnet content being higher on the vintage stones.
I've never seen anything concrete to prove that. I could be wrong, and if someone can tell me different please do.

Considering the fact that these stones are 400,000,000 years old, what difference would 100 years make. I've read that the best stones have all ready been quarried. I find that hard to believe too.
I can understand that owning an older Coticule may have some intrinsic value, but are they actually better?

I really don't know the answer to you question but it is a common occurance with any economically valuable mineral that over time the ore is worked out.Look at the Gold mines in California and Alaska and the Diamond deposits in South Africa which keep expanding. The quarries in japan that produced the famed honing stones are pretty much gone except for lesser quality stones. As you go through the target rock and mine it out it usually follows a vein or a larger sill or dike in the rock and as you come to the end of the structure the quality deteriorates. There are some ares with really massive rock like Gore Mountain in N.Y which is basically a sold Garnet and has been mined for years for abrasives.

I agree with you and appreciate your answer, However, Rob's quarry is hardly mined out. I read a post on badger and blade and the Gentleman was saying that his vintage coticule had 50-60% garnet content, as opposed to the newer stones 30-40%. I've been told by reputable sources in the industry, this is a complete falsehood. As I said, when your talking 400 million years, what's 100?

My intuition tells me that there would be no difference in vintage and new coticules. I agree that if the quarry was somewhat "mined out", then the quality of the stone produced now would be of less. But, if there is still a large amount left to mine, I don't see why the coticule mined today would be any different than that mined 100 years ago. But, as I said, that's just my intuition. I also read a theory that there was more coticule available 100 years ago (for whatever reason), so they could be more selective, only choosing the best quality. To be honest, I'm not sure what's true, but I wouldn't hesitate ordering a new coticule, I'm sure they perform just as well!

Dave

I don't know the answer to that either. I have a really nice vintage natural and it is a great hone but my favorite coticule is a natural of recent vintage. A friend sold it to me. He got it from Howard at the Perfect Edge and I assume Howard got it from Rob at Ardennes Coticule. I asked Rob the same question on vintage versus current production and here was his reply. If you want to read the whole thread there is a lot of good info in it and it is here .

I don't think coticules were as desirable as gold or other precious metals (even though they are worth more to me!), so they weren't mined as heavily, and consequently, not used up.

As far as garnet content in older stones being higher... I don't buy it. Hell, it's all about the same age, it's just when it was dug up.

"Vintage" coticule vs. new....pfft.

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage." Every one of them is different. Each one of them behaves slightly differently because of the simple fact that each of them actually is different. New or old, if your hone does not share saw marks with one of my hones, then your hone is going to be different from mine.
They're all different.
That is the nature of a natural hone, also known as a piece of ROCK.

The only reason why I think that there are people saying that vintage Coticule stones are better for straight razor use then new Coticule stones is the following:

Most of the vintage Coticule stones that you guys find on eBay or in your local antique store are stones used by barbers or by private straight razor users. The Coticule miner companies from 100 years ago selected these stones specially for the use of straight razors. Before World War 2 there was a large exportation of Coticule stones for straight razor use to the USA and UK. So most of the vintage Coticule stones you guys are finding in the USA and UK are perfect stones for straight razors!

After World Ward 2 there only was a small exportation to the USA and this came to an end around 1960-1980. Around 1960 the last mine closed and in the '80's the last quarry went broke. So a lot of the Coticule knowledge disappeared (knowledge in terms of 'which Coticule is good for which use').

We, Ardennes Coticule, officially restarted the last quarry in 1998 and are planning to re-open the last mine in 2009. In our family (Ardennes Coticule is a family business) we have a lot of knowledge about quarrying and mining (The Coticule quarry and mine aren't our first quarry and mine) but we didn't had much knowledge about the Coticule stone (both in terms of the use and the distribution world wide).

So in the very beginning we sold every Coticule for every purpose. None of our family members knew that for example straight razor users preferred softer stones and wood workers the harder ones!
We had to learn all this from unsatisfied customers, from talks with Coticule users from the old days and so on ... .
The Coticule stones sold by us in the beginning of our company are Coticule stones from an excellent quality but were sold for the wrong purpose (example: not soft enough for straight razor use)!
But that's the past. Right now costumers have to specify the purpose of their stone and they will receive the right Coticule stone!
All the stones sold by our USA and UK distributors for straight razor use are excellent for that very purpose and are even good as the vintage Coticule stones!

But keep in mind that we are working with natural stones! All the stones are unique and sometimes we have Coticule stones that are extremely soft and that contain a very high concentration of garnets.
If you got a vintage Coticule like this you could easily say that it's better than a 'new' Coticule but you can also find a vintage Coticule which is harder and/or contains less garnets then a 'newer' one.
So I'm sure you guys understand that there are Coticule stones floating around in the straight razor community that are less suitable for this use. Are these stones bad? No, they are excellent Coticule stones, but not suitable for straight razor use.

It all depends on the vein from which the Coticule comes!

More info: Coticule Layer Round Up - Part 1 (Warning - 62 pictures) - Badger & Blade

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

I actually had the same experience with the one "vintage" natural combo coticule I have on hand. It cuts pretty fast and rough (especially compared to the Spyderco UF), and I have to hone under running water to "polish" with it or it will wreck a final edge.

That being said, once I got the hang of it, I grew to really like that stone.

I am getting another one from ArdennesCoticule pretty soon, so it will be fun to compare the 2 in a honing head to head.