Bevelsetting on a Coticule.

I have been using slurry on a Coticule for bevel correction work, for several months now. Not all Coticules lend themselves equally great for that kind of work, and I have noticed that it puzzles some people that I can even get away with it at all. On SRP, Coticules are mainly known for their excellent finishing properties, but not for doing bevel correction. Although it is certain that the historic use of Coticules included the latter, and that finishing often was done on a pasted loom strop. One of the most reknowned Belgian razor stores in Antwerp still do it that way. They restore a good bevel on the Coticule and use Dovo red paste (3µ) to finish the edge. Not my prefered method, but it works well enough. But I was talking about bevel correction.
Last night's honing session included a razor send by a member here, that had a few indentations near the toe, probably caused by that razor hitting its scales at that point. The chips were visual with the naked eye. Let's have a look:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...cot-bevel1.jpg
My regular course of action would be to breadknife till the damage is gone and rebuild the missing part of the bevel starting on a DMT 600, before I complete the bevel on a Coticule.
But for the sake of wanting to write this post, I decided not to breadknife and correct the problem on nothing but a Coticule.
I deliberately didn't grab my fastest Coticule, to emphasize that I NOT use a one in a million Coticule. These kind of Coticules are available to anyone that's prepared to do some hunting. The size of the one I used last night is 40X150mm (about 1 3/4" X 6").
I shot some pictures during the process.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...cot-bevel2.jpg
The first picture shows clean, milk-like slurry.
The second was shot after precisely 10 laps. Notice the slight grayish discoloration.
The third picture was shot after about 5 minutes of honing.
The final picture was taken after 20 minutes, with the bevel entirely set again. 10 minutes later this razor was fully honed.
I've also uploaded a short AVI-file, that I recorded with my little photocamera. The link is only active for 7 days.
YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement
[Edit: no need to download it any longer. Huntmol was so kind to put it on Youtube. Scroll down to watch. Thanks, Huntmol.]
Best regards,
Bart.

Thanks for that information Bart, and the visuals, that is just great

I have often gotten my slurry as dark as the third shot but never to the fourth. I think those photos will be very informative for those questioning the power of the coticule.

Bart, I appreciate your continued diligence in defending the honor of the coticule. Rock on!
(Lame double entrendre entirely intentional.)

Wow...that picture looks almost exactly like what I had on my razor from this thread. As I posted, I can attest to the effects of the Coticule on a problem like this. Very, Very effective, for me at least.

Holy cow! I didn't know it was possible to hone that fast, you hone faster than I can strop!
Great pictures and video, though. I recently found a coticule/bbw combo for a reasonable price, so hopefully I will be able to test this incredible theory soon.

Since the download link is going to expire in 7 days, I uploaded the clip to Youtube so that even if this thread is found months from now they will still be able to watch a honing master at work:
Bart of SRP honing on a Belgian Coticule

I've fooled with setting bevels on a coticule before but always felt it took too long. I have a Wester Bros Manganese on deck for tonight with a chippy edge. I will give it a go on a Belgian tonight. Thanks for the great post Bart ! :tu Another great one that came out of Belgium. :)

Edit; BTW, I counted 28 round trips in 30 seconds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have often gotten my slurry as dark as the third shot but never to the fourth. I think those photos will be very informative for those questioning the power of the coticule.

Bart, I appreciate your continued diligence in defending the honor of the coticule. Rock on!
(Lame double entrendre entirely intentional.)

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Utopian , I coultn't agree more!
MikeB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by huntmol

Holy cow! I didn't know it was possible to hone that fast, you hone faster than I can strop!
Great pictures and video, though. I recently found a coticule/bbw combo for a reasonable price, so hopefully I will be able to test this incredible theory soon.

Since the download link is going to expire in 7 days, I uploaded the clip to Youtube so that even if this thread is found months from now they will still be able to watch a honing master at work:
Bart of SRP honing on a Belgian Coticule

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Huntmol, thanks for that. I have no Youtube account and didn't feel like figuring it out. Honing is already difficult enough...;)

On the speed of my laps... I guess it makes a difference for setting a bevel on a coticule in a reasonable time frame, but I'm surely not stretching myself here. I always felt I needed to add some swiftness to the strokes, in order to get them as light as possible. But my first concern has always been to maintain good and consistent contact with the hone. It's just like stropping (but kind of in reverse). Speed is something that comes with doing it a lot.

Bart.

awesome post Bart!

Hey Bart,

What did you use after that 4th picture? Belgian blue with slurry followed by the coticule with plain water?

thanks for the awesome information! I CAN'T wait for my stone to come in! Hopefully tomorrow!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dups

Hey Bart,

What did you use after that 4th picture? Belgian blue with slurry followed by the coticule with plain water?

thanks for the awesome information! I CAN'T wait for my stone to come in! Hopefully tomorrow!

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First rinsed the Coticule, raised a bit of fresh slurry, and did 100 extra laps, diluting the slurry with a few drops of water every 10 laps, till washed down completely. Going a bit slower, aiming for the best strokes with the lightest pressure.

Next probing the edge with TPT and HHT. (good TPT, HHT pops only very close to the holding point.) Contemplating for a while whether I'd go test shaving or not. Sometimes this is all it takes to get a great edge. Stropped the edge 60 laps on leather. Probed with the HHT again (Now popping hairs, but not too great). Decided that it wasn't there yet. 10 laps on Naniwa Chosera 5K. About 30 laps on Naniwa Chosera 10K, performing a TPT every 10 laps. Not entirely pleased. 15 more on the Naniwa Chosera 5K. 20 laps on Naniwa Chosera 10K, again checking every 10 laps. HHT now at about same level as the stropped edge earlier in the progression. 30 laps on a very hard, glassy Coticule. I could have used the same one as I used for the bevel stage, but I have to keep them all happy I guess...:rolleyes:. Stropped 60 laps on clean leather. HHT performs swiftly now, hair is more falling than "popping". Test shaved. Great results, well within limits.

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

First rinsed the Coticule, raised a bit of fresh slurry, and did 100 extra laps, diluting the slurry with a few drops of water every 10 laps, till washed down completely. Going a bit slower, aiming for the best strokes with the lightest pressure.

Next probing the edge with TPT and HHT. (good TPT, HHT pops only very close to the holding point.) Contemplating for a while whether I'd go test shaving or not. Sometimes this is all it takes to get a great edge. Stropped the edge 60 laps on leather. Probed with the HHT again (Now popping hairs, but not too great). Decided that it wasn't there yet. 10 laps on Naniwa Chosera 5K. About 30 laps on Naniwa Chosera 10K, performing a TPT every 10 laps. Not entirely pleased. 15 more on the Naniwa Chosera 5K. 20 laps on Naniwa Chosera 10K, again checking every 10 laps. HHT now at about same level as the stropped edge earlier in the progression. 30 laps on a very hard, glassy Coticule. I could have used the same one as I used for the bevel stage, but I have to keep them all happy I guess...:rolleyes:. Stropped 60 laps on clean leather. HHT performs swiftly now, hair is more falling than "popping". Test shaved. Great results, well within limits.

Bart.

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Ummmm....

Why do I have a BBW?

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Originally Posted by JimR

Ummmm....

Why do I have a BBW?

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Is that a rhetorical question? :)

Because you can do 70-100 laps on a real light slurry, finish with the same amount on a Coticule with only water, and get a great shaving edge.
What's in my previous post, using the Chosera 5K and 10K, aims at a bit more final keenness. I offer honing services, so I'm trying to make a slight difference.
I know several guys that happily shave off the Blue/slurry - Coticule/water progression. I often do so myself. It's just that, when honing for others, I feel the Naniwas give me a larger landing zone, because the 10K leaves sharpness to spare.
On a side note: ever since I arrived at SRP, I feel there is an increasing demand for more sharpness. I'm not sure that's always a desirable course, and I usually aim for the edge that discerns best between whiskers and skin. For me personally, that might very well be the BBW honed edge. But for sending out commissioned razors, I like to err on the keener side. I have the same dilemma in my capacity of recording engineer/producer: I prefer the organic sound of old jazz recordings, but mostly I have to deliver more "radio-friendly" work than that.
Dups asked how I finished the job on that razor. Please don't read that as a rejection of the BBW.

Let me guess... It was a rhetorical question, right?:w
;)
Bart.

Thanks Bart,

That level of perfection in an edge, I'm afraid is never ending puruit.

I have used both the blue and coticule and have never had any consistent success with either except for the Coticule with a light slurry and a coticule with just water. What did you use to build the level of thickness in your slurry depicted and can you show the razor that generated the dark slurry after the 20 minutes.

This has been a really good thread.

Thanks,

Lynn

Great post, Bart. Thanks. I'd really like to see a closeup shot of the edge after bevel setting or finish honing. I have a very soft vintage coticule that easily creates slurry and shows swarf very quickly (it's a fast cutter). I realize you're saying the most any coticule can be used for setting bevels. But your post gives me motivation to use the soft coticule for a "start to finish" honing session.


Thanks!

Chris L

So if I get this right...with a lot of patience one could eventually hone a razor from scratch using nothing but a coticule. Starting with heavy slurry followed by some more slurry slowly diluted with water only?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dups

So if I get this right...with a lot of patience one could eventually hone a razor from scratch using nothing but a coticule. Starting with heavy slurry followed by some more slurry slowly diluted with water only?

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I don't have the experience that Bart has, or the stone collection like some do, but I have owned and used in the neighborhood of 10 coticules making up what I would consider the "soft, medium and hard" varieties. I have a very hard 8"x3" natural combo. You could do hundreds and hundreds of passes with water on that stone and after letting the stone dry you would not find ANY dry slurry powder on the stone or on the finger after wiping the dry stone's surface. It creates no slurry on its own. Of course you can use a coticule slurry stone or a diamond plate to make slurry on it. Unless I came up with some very aggressive and drastic measures, I could not get a thick milky slurry on that particular stone like Bart's coticule exhibits here. The one I speak of is a great finishing stone, but would be very difficult to use from start to finish.

That said, I own 4 or 5 coticules that would with a little work create great slurry and could be used as Bart has here.

Chris L

I'm expecting a 6 x 1.5 combination stone with combination slurry stone. I can't wait to see how it performs!

Great post great video. I took another try at bevel setting with one of my coticules last night with this Wester Bros with a chipped up edge. I gave in after a short 200 laps (I know, I am a wimp) and went to the diamond plate.

My question is , after watching your light touch on the hone is it safe to assume you use considerably more pressure in setting the bevel on the coticule and that the video showed the finishing rather then the bevel setting stroke ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I don't have the experience that Bart has, or the stone collection like some do, but I have owned and used in the neighborhood of 10 coticules making up what I would consider the "soft, medium and hard" varieties. I have a very hard 8"x3" natural combo. You could do hundreds and hundreds of passes with water on that stone and after letting the stone dry you would not find ANY dry slurry powder on the stone or on the finger after wiping the dry stone's surface. It creates no slurry on its own. Of course you can use a coticule slurry stone or a diamond plate to make slurry on it. Unless I came up with some very aggressive and drastic measures, I could not get a thick milky slurry on that particular stone like Bart's coticule exhibits here. The one I speak of is a great finishing stone, but would be very difficult to use from start to finish.

That said, I own 4 or 5 coticules that would with a little work create great slurry and could be used as Bart has here.

Chris L

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I think there are a few stones out there that you can sit down with and do a lot on a given razor with an unlimited amount of time. I always look at what stones can I sit down with every day with 10-20 razors and walk away with consistently honed edges that will produce a very nice shave. When I know that these stones will produce these results on everything from a restore to a refresh, then I look know they will work for an every day honing if someone just has a couple of razors.

Now I am gonna go have to play and see if I can do this with an Escher and a Nakayama...........

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I'd really like to see a closeup shot of the edge after bevel setting or finish honing.

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Here you go: the finished edge, same spot as the initial picture.

That's exactly what I was hoping to see. Thanks Bart. I could look at pictures of sharp crisp razor bevels all day. Yeah, I know, I'm weird.

Chris L

Bart, were you using more pressure in setting the bevel then you were using in the video ? Inquiring minds want to know. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Thanks Bart,

That level of perfection in an edge, I'm afraid is never ending puruit.

I have used both the blue and coticule and have never had any consistent success with either except for the Coticule with a light slurry and a coticule with just water.

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Lynn,
Thanks for dropping by. I have noticed before that we both have a somewhat different approach to the Belgian hones.
It took me a long time to figure out what you meant with your “less is more” adage to honing. It was only after I purchased some synthetic water hones that I could see the applicability of that. The principles of doing few laps never really applied to my use of the Coticule and Belgian Blue. Although I tried it on more than a few occasions, I never really got decent results.
Perhaps finishing on the Coticule with water excluded, I really don’t think the Belgian Naturals are the best available tools for the honing professional. Today’s market offers hones that are faster and more reliable for repeatable consistency of results. I would like to make a comparison with another passion of mine: fine woodworking. I like to finish my surfaces with vintage-style hand-planes, that I like to restore and tune (and occasionally also build) myself. Apart from lending a unique sheen to a surface, it is mainly just a very satisfying activity. But a craftsman with any significant production would commit economical suicide using these obsolete methods, other than perhaps in his own leisure time.
I think there’s a similarity when you compare Coticules and BBWs to, let’s say, the Shapton honing system.
Every Shapton you buy, will always be the same. Belgian Naturals will not.
Any given Shapton progression will yield repeatable results in a narrow target zone. Honing on a Coticule is certainly more adventurous than that.
I am no honing professional. I simply offer a honing service, because it allows me to hone razors, without the need to actually buy them myself.:D (I was rapidly honing my small personal razor collection into oblivion) . Even if someone would invent a small apparatus that could hone a straight razor to absolute perfection, I'd still be using my Coticules. I'm a romantic nostalgician when it comes to many things worthwhile in life.

My long-winded posts about the Coticule and BBW are certainly not inspired by a sense of superiority. I'm fully aware that there are faster hones, faster methods, sharper razors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

What did you use to build the level of thickness in your slurry depicted and can you show the razor that generated the dark slurry after the 20 minutes.

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I build the slurry with a small piece of Coticule. The thickness was just the tickness of coffee milk. The razor is owned by a well known member here. It does not carry any stamps or markings. I believe it's just a high carbon steel razor, like 13 in a dozen. I have to PM the member tonight, I'll ask him to chime in here with the details of that razor. The darkeness of the slurry was what I always get when I need to do more than 10 minutes of bevel work, using a Coticule.

Best regards,
Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My question is , after watching your light touch on the hone is it safe to assume you use considerably more pressure in setting the bevel on the coticule and that the video showed the finishing rather then the bevel setting stroke ?

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Yes, I did perform a number of one-sided laps with slight pressure. (not a lot, let's say about the pressure you use to push tooth paste out of a tube). I may have done 50 laps on one side, flipped the razor and did 50 laps on the other side. Then I continued with the kind of strokes you see in the video. After maybe 20 of that, I checked with the TPT, and decided I did not needed to perform additional one sided honing. I think that was about half way during the entire bevel stage.

Bart.

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dups

So if I get this right...with a lot of patience one could eventually hone a razor from scratch using nothing but a coticule. Starting with heavy slurry followed by some more slurry slowly diluted with water only?

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After completing the bevel on a Coticule, I always progress into a stage where I raise a bit of fresh slurry and dilute it, as described in one of the previous posts. I have a stone that gives an approximate success rate of 1 to 4. I haven't figured out yet how I can get more consistent results. Perhaps I need to find "THE" Coticule to do it. Perhaps I can fine-tune the method for more consistency at some point? Right now, it often feels like some kind of sport. I have good days and bad days, and I generally "know" it when I'm at a winning streak, and I also notice when I'm loosing it. It's hard to explain.
But whatever happens, if the results are not keen enough, I'm at least granted with a great bevel for stepping up to the Belgian Blue or the Choseras.
My quest for honing a razor on one Coticule alone, is probably my main reason for doing the bevel correction stage on a Coticule in the first place. I just need to have my clear shot at it. Every honing is another new promise to me. Is that a crazy thought?

Best regards,
Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

Bart.
I had no idea you were a plane man. That's great.

I never liked counted lap descriptions because there are so many sizes of hones, i thought time spent might give a better indication. Now I see that is flawed as well. the speed of your stroke is easily double maybe 3 times as quick as what i do.

I wanted to see the finished edge for comparison, just like Chris. thanks.

What is it we are seeing?-looks like it is not quite there.

The cot in your pics looks as yellow as a shapton 1k. Does the color give any information on the qualities or suitability of a given stone for a specific task.

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You are seeing the edge, as I have test shaved with, honed and finished as described earlier in this thread. I consider this razor ready to be send back to the owner.

I have noticed in another thread, that you seem to emphasize much more on polishing the bevel sides than I do. That razor is finished on a Coticule with water, and it looks just like any edge of mine.

I agree with you about the lap counts, although I usually do provide newbies with laps counts (except for bevel formation), so they have at least a starting point.

About colors of Coticules: I really don't know. Word 's been spread that pinkish Coticules are fast (mine is), and that greenish are great finishers (I don't really know about mine). I think Ardennes should offer a selection hand picked Coticules, tested individually and sold with a report. I'm going to visit the quarry later in the spring, and I hope to do some selection then.

Best regards,
Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

On the speed of my laps... I guess it makes a difference for setting a bevel on a coticule in a reasonable time frame, but I'm surely not stretching myself here. I always felt I needed to add some swiftness to the strokes, in order to get them as light as possible. But my first concern has always been to maintain good and consistent contact with the hone. It's just like stropping (but kind of in reverse). Speed is something that comes with doing it a lot.

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I never thought about that. You're right, now that you mentioned it, it's rather similar to stropping. If I can strop really fast, I might just approach honing the way you hone - one handed, light fast stroke.
The only problem I see about honing like this is that being the hone narrower than the strop (My TM 3'' strop Vs. 1.5'' stones) I'm afraid the razor will balance and won't keep flat on the stone.
Now that I just finished honing my last Filly tonight, I don't have any razors left to practice this new approach!I'll have to wait for my razors to get dull. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Is that a rhetorical question? :)

...I have the same dilemma in my capacity of recording engineer/producer: I prefer the organic sound of old jazz recordings, but mostly I have to deliver more "radio-friendly" work than that.
;)
Bart.

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That's music to my ears Bart - if you'll forgive the pun! I know it's a bit OTT, but I'm a jazz fiend too - I play my old LPs on a gyrodec through valve amplfication - bliss!

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Is that a rhetorical question? :)

Because you can do 70-100 laps on a real light slurry, finish with the same amount on a Coticule with only water, and get a great shaving edge.
What's in my previous post, using the Chosera 5K and 10K, aims at a bit more final keenness. I offer honing services, so I'm trying to make a slight difference.
I know several guys that happily shave off the Blue/slurry - Coticule/water progression. I often do so myself. It's just that, when honing for others, I feel the Naniwas give me a larger landing zone, because the 10K leaves sharpness to spare.
On a side note: ever since I arrived at SRP, I feel there is an increasing demand for more sharpness. I'm not sure that's always a desirable course, and I usually aim for the edge that discerns best between whiskers and skin. For me personally, that might very well be the BBW honed edge. But for sending out commissioned razors, I like to err on the keener side. I have the same dilemma in my capacity of recording engineer/producer: I prefer the organic sound of old jazz recordings, but mostly I have to deliver more "radio-friendly" work than that.
Dups asked how I finished the job on that razor. Please don't read that as a rejection of the BBW.

Let me guess... It was a rhetorical question, right?:w
;)
Bart.

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Well, let's just say it was and leave it at that. ;)

Bart, I like the cut of your jib. Thanks.

I'm absolutely dying to get mine! If only Canada Post could be quicker. The stone is a warehouse about 2 hours from here....sounds like a road trip might be in the works for today...:P

This is an awesome thread Bart! Very educational. Thanks!
khat

Fascinating reading - thanks. I'm a little confused - please forgive my newbie ignorance and what might be a dumb question to ask in this revered thread! When honing to set a bevel (let's say for a new old razor purchase), is the fundamental difference to honing that of the grit size or a different angle of attack (for example, with taped spine)? I have visions of two processes but common sense tells me that this cannot be as the 'routine' honing is done with spine flat against the hone. I think I've answered my own question but you guys could perhaps straighten me out by explaining the special process of setting a bevel - I take it to be the initial extra work that is done on a razor that has lost the bevel, through wear or damage and done with a relatively coarse grit, (maybe 1000) to get the cutting done. So the complete honing would be: set bevel - perhaps lots of laps on coarse grit; progression honing through finer grit sizes to develop the edge; finishing to make it super sharp.

I've been wrong before :)

I think you got it right.
"Bevel setting", or "bevel correction" simply refers to the formation of two flat planes that run all the way to the outer limit of the blade. The finer hones that are used on a razor's edge don't have the speed to correct geometrical issues of the edge, hence it needs to be taken care of first, using a hone that has enough cutting power to shape the cutting bevel. Every razor has a preset bevel angle, defined by the thickness of the spine and the width of the blade. The angle is easy to repeat and to maintain by placing the blade flat on the hone.
All razor honing is generally done with one angle: bevel correction as well as the rest of the progression.
You can add one (or even more) layer(s) of tape to the spine, which slightly alters the bevel angle. It is important to maintain the tape for the entire honing job. Usually tape is added to protect fancy spine decorations form hone wear. Sometimes also to tackle problems with wedge-style razors.
Here's a more in depth article about bevel correction.
Bevel-setting in theory and practice - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Best regards,
Bart.

Thank you Bart. Very useful and much appreciated.