First hone- which should I get?

Okay, so I have two straight razors both of which need a touch up on a hone. Now most people have recommended a Belgian and others a Spyderco UF, which one do you gentlemen think I should get. I'm really concerned about price I don't want to spend too much and I can only afford one. Reading other posts I'm leaning toward Ardenes couticle, does any one know how much the duties usually run for the states? Any and all info and recommendations even other hone recommendations would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,
Serg

I recommend a Belgian coticule from Howard at the Perfect Edge. Then you won't have to worry about duties or expensive shipping.

I Agree, but I think coticules are awesome stones to work with since they're all so different from each other.

You might want to think about a 2"x6" or a 2"x8" natural combination (Belgian Blue & coticule) hone.
I have purchased several hones from Howard at the Perfect Edge and have no hesitation buying more. He is a great guy.

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Originally Posted by Stagehand

You might want to think about a 2"x6" or a 2"x8" natural combination (Belgian Blue & coticule) hone.
I have purchased several hones from Howard at the Perfect Edge and have no hesitation buying more. He is a great guy.

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+1. BBW/Coticule combo is the most versatile hone around.

You could also consider ordering a Norton 4k/8k combo from Lee Valley. All funds are in Canadian dollars on their site and it's a great stone.

Norton Water Stones - Lee Valley Tools

X

Howard is a great guy. There are lot's of vendors out there. Shop around. You might be able to find some that are less expensive. Bestsharpeningstones.com is a lot less expensive. I somtimes have some on the classifieds as do other members. Check the Classifieds, You can get one at much lower price.
They all come from the same Quarry in Belgium. No one has better stones than anyone else, believe me. There's even much debate about so called "Vintage Coticules" Coticlues are 500 million years old, They All come from same quarry. What difference does 100 years make...Actually, Howard told me that, but it makes sense....Rob in Belgium will tell you the exact same thing. Every Coticule is unique unto itself.

Thanks Zib, I've actually looked at those before for the same reason you specified. I have not purchased from them because I hear tell of how the coticles are all different and some are best for tools rather than razors. If people have had good results from their coticles, I'll be more than glad to purchase from them. Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
I really like their kit with the blue and yellow coticle both 6"x2", now if I pull the trigger; should I get the soft or med. slurry stone?

Serg

From the original post it seemed to me that all that was needed/wanted was a stone to do touch ups and a fairly inexpensive one at that. If that is true, why not a barbers hone for say $25?

Probably because I have heard so much of the coticles and how they are so versatile. But barbers hone is another option. Where do most people get them? I don't have an e-bay acct. or care to open one up so that route is out.

Thanks,
Serg

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Originally Posted by zib

Howard is a great guy. There are lot's of vendors out there. Shop around. You might be able to find some that are less expensive. Bestsharpeningstones.com is a lot less expensive. I somtimes have some on the classifieds as do other members. Check the Classifieds, You can get one at much lower price.
They all come from the same Quarry in Belgium. No one has better stones than anyone else, believe me. There's even much debate about so called "Vintage Coticules" Coticlues are 500 million years old, They All come from same quarry. What difference does 100 years make...Actually, Howard told me that, but it makes sense....Rob in Belgium will tell you the exact same thing. Every Coticule is unique unto itself.

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I don't doubt you, but I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why one vendor would charge more than 50% more than the next for what is an identical stone?

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I don't doubt you, but I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why one vendor would charge more than 50% more than the next for what is an identical stone?

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Howard might be a bit more expensive, true but I'll tell you this. If or when you get a coticule from Howard you know it's going to be an awesome one because Howard inspects each coticule and rejects the ones he doesn't find good enough. He knows exactly which coticule to choose. So basically you'll be getting the right coticule for the job. If you have a specific request for a hard or soft one he can help you too. That's a small premium you pay for. Customer service and dedication.

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Originally Posted by Maximilian

Howard might be a bit more expensive, true but I'll tell you this. If or when you get a coticule from Howard you know it's going to be an awesome one because Howard inspects each coticule and rejects the ones he doesn't find good enough. He knows exactly which coticule to choose. So basically you'll be getting the right coticule for the job. If you have a specific request for a hard or soft one he can help you too. That's a small premium you pay for. Customer service and dedication.

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Good points Max. IMO, good customer service like that does go a long way. I don't mean to further hijack this thread, but what exactly are the differences between hard and soft coticules with respect to honing straight razors? Any reason to prefer one over the other or do they provide the same results (with the only variation being the normal difference between coticules) with just a different feel? Or is it reasonable to assume that the performance, on average, will be considerably different for a soft vs hard coticule?

EDIT: Found the answer to my own question. Here for those interested.

I do the same. I'm in contact with Rob Celis pretty much weekly. He hand picks my orders for me. If I'm not satisfied with any stone he sends me, He replaces it. I only import Select Grade, Medium Soft. I can, However accomodate any request for whatever reason. You want a combo, pink, hard, soft, whatever. I personally inspect every stone under magnification to make sure it has no cracks, Fissures, imperfection, whatever. All do respect to Howard. I've purchased stones from him to, but I don't skimp when it comes to Customer Service either. He charges more because people pay it, and he has a great reputation. I have and sell the identical stones. If someone is not satisfied, for whatever reason, I gladly take them back. I'll even take one back if they want to upgrade to a larger stone. If you email me, I do get back to you in one day. Sometimes it seems no matter what you do, or how hard you try, you can't get a break. Even if you just about give away your stone to try and get some props. That's how one vendor can sell his much cheaper than another. It's not because corners are cut. You just try and hang on. As a matter of fact, Any member here can contact Rob Celis of Ardennes Coticule and ask for yourself.

IMHO get a Norton 4/8 learn that stone, then after you master it, add any stone you want and expand your honing knowledge.... In fact the Norton starter set is probably the best first buy there is at about $120 shipped then later when the RAD bug bites you have the tools to fix those E-Bay razors too......

Starting on a Coticule unless it is just for re-touching a shave ready razor, is a hard row to hoe....

+1 for the Norton 4/8 Can get a good shave off it to.

Steven

My first hones were a Norton 4/8k and 1k/220 with lapping plate. It all came together as a package. I couldn't resist the deal.....Great Hones......

This is not a recommendation for a hone; more of an observation from another newbie.

Norton's 4k/8k is the usual recommendation for new guys, but like I mentioned to another member, I'm surprised the DMT W4E and the W4EE doesn't get more attention, especially the W4EE (8000 grit).

It's diamond plate, no lapping, only 24 bucks or so (maybe 26) and seems to be a great hone for everyone who has reviewed it. I intend to get these two hones and use a finishing stone at around 12k and chromium for my setup, so as to smooth away that diamond harshness.

Now let me be clear. I haven't had the experience of comparison, and therefore I can't recommend these hones and remain intellectually honest, but those honers who tried them really seem to like these little diamond hones. They describe them as a great option in both price and maintainence, with ease of use as an added bonus. It may not have as much talk on the forum, but what commentary it does have is absolutely positive.

The Norton, however, does seem to present some difficulties. Some say it dishes easy, needs a lot of lapping, collects edge-damaging grit from sandpaper, and costs over a hundred. As a new guy, it made me a little leery, to be honest.

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

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Originally Posted by Spatterdash

This is not a recommendation for a hone; more of an observation from another newbie.

Norton's 4k/8k is the usual recommendation for new guys, but like I mentioned to another member, I'm surprised the DMT W4E and the W4EE doesn't get more attention, especially the W4EE (8000 grit).

It's diamond plate, no lapping, only 24 bucks or so (maybe 26) and seems to be a great hone for everyone who has reviewed it. I intend to get these two hones and use a finishing stone at around 12k and chromium for my setup, so as to smooth away that diamond harshness.

Now let me be clear. I haven't had the experience of comparison, and therefore I can't recommend these hones and remain intellectually honest, but those honers who tried them really seem to like these little diamond hones. They describe them as a great option in both price and maintainence, with ease of use as an added bonus. It may not have as much talk on the forum, but what commentary it does have is absolutely positive.

The Norton, however, does seem to present some difficulties. Some say it dishes easy, needs a lot of lapping, collects edge-damaging grit from sandpaper, and costs over a hundred. As a new guy, it made me a little leery, to be honest.

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

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I've not had experience with the diamond plates you've mentioned, but one of the biggest reasons that the norton 4k/8k combo at least is recommended so frequently to newbies, is not only because it's a great hone, also because almost everyone has tried it, therefore there is a ton of experience around here on what it can and can't do, what results to expect, and what the potential problems are. So when a newbie has a question, lots of people can answer it quickly and tell them exactly what to try, because they themselves have the same hone(s). If, however, someone bought some less popular hones, and came and asked a question, there may be many less people who have used them, so people might not know what to make of the newbie's findings and would be forced to guess. This could put the newbie in a position of not knowing if it's his hones or his technique, kind of hindering the whole process.

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Originally Posted by Spatterdash

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

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Ummmmm No !!!!! the Norton is the most recommended because it works... and works very well, help is easy to find, and there are plenty of proved systems to use with this hone....

Are there better hones???? you bet, at that entry price ??? not even close....

As PJ so eloquently stated above LOL

One other thing I should add, not knocking DMT's but they are a rather pressure sensitive honing system, and they need to be broken in correctly....
Two things that might hinder a newbie to honing razors....


Update:
I went and looked at the hones you are suggesting here
http://www.heimerdingercutlery.com/c...TOKEN=25208584

This is one time I am going to be very direct.... no offense intended here...
These are not a good choice for honing razors, IMHO and experience, take that statement for what it's worth......

The "what's the best hone" discussion is almost going on continuously for as long as I follow these forums. If you read all posts dealing with this question, you'll come to only one conclusion: everybody likes the hones he uses best.

I am pretty convinced that they all work, although it's common for many newbies to question the quality of the hone, in absence of instant success, just as it's common that a lot of aspiring straight shavers question the sharpness of the razor when they stumble with good technique in the beginning.

My best advice for anyone that wants to buy a first hone, is to know thy self. Do you mind about soaking your hone? Would you mind to lap it frequently? Would you dislike honing with slurry? Would you dislike variability in natural hones? What is your budget? Is a hone just an exchangeable tool for you, or would you also like to cherish it for its beauty and character? Etcetera, etcetera...
Buy something that appeals to you. Stick with your purchase and learn to really use it well, before buying anything else. Once familiar with that first purchase (whether it was a Norton combo, a set of matching Shaptons, 2 DMT's , the Belgian tandem, a couple of Naniwa superstones, or something else), you 'll be happy with your choise, no matter what it was, and you'll be telling newbies in future threads like this one, to buy the same as yours.:rolleyes::)

Bart.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Update:
I went and looked at the hones you are suggesting here
DMT W4E Pocket Diamond Stone 4" Extra Fine

This is one time I am going to be very direct.... no offense intended here...
These are not a good choice for honing razors, IMHO and experience, take that statement for what it's worth......

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No offense taken.

I'll point out that I didn't suggest them, or recommend them. Describing their reviews is not an endorsement.
I can't. I noted that they had very good reviews on this site and was curious why they get no mention.

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.
What led you to that conclusion? I'd want your feedback on these as much as the next experienced honer. I'd appreciate your review of these as well.

Let's not forget I'm a newbie, too. I have questions as to why Norton is the deafening answer to the first hone question, when searching the forum seems to show a far more nuanced field of options.

+1 Glen and PJ's point taken. Norton's are prefered by many of our Honemeister's. If I'm not mistaken, and maye he'll chime in, Mr.Lynn Abrams uses it as his go to hone. Good enough for Lynn and tens of thousands of razors he's sharpened, Good enough for me. I have an array of hones. I love my DMT's, but really use them to lap other hones. To someone just starting out, you can really do some damage with a diamond plate and I would not recommend it to someone inexperienced.
As Glen pointed out, there is a break in period. I've seen guys really do some damage on Hones, let alone what it can do your blade, even if it is 8k. I feel the Norton Syn. Hone is more forgiving, like training wheels.

As Bart said, People always debate hones on this and other forums. The Nortons are Synthetic, therefore, consistent. They're also a nice size for a razor, come in a little storage box that you can fill with water. The small DMT cheese grater hones don't appeal to some str8 uses like me, because it seems as thought it's possible to catch an edge in one of those little holes? Is that possible?

My personal preference is a rock. Whether it's a Coticule, (that's my hone of choice, I have many, each different) BBW's, Eshcer's, Japanese Naturals, Nortons, Barber hones, DMT, Chinese 12k, to name a few...

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Originally Posted by Spatterdash

No offense taken.

I'll point out that I didn't suggest them, or recommend them. Describing their reviews is not an endorsement.
I can't. I noted that they had very good reviews on this site and was curious why they get no mention.

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.
What led you to that conclusion? I'd want your feedback on these as much as the next experienced honer. I'd appreciate your review of these as well.

Let's not forget I'm a newbie, too. I have questions as to why Norton is the deafening answer to the first hone question, when searching the forum seems to show a far more nuanced field of options.

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In addition to everything I wrote as well as Glen and Bart, I forgot to mention that I think an important factor in recommending the norton is also that it's synthetic and therefore consistent.

Basically, if a newbie gets a Norton 4k/8k, it is guaranteed to be a great stone for honing razors that most people have used it and can help with, and this puts nearly any problems solely on the shoulders of the newbie, preventing him/her from blaming the hone, and working on their technique instead.

If they buy a coticule for example, and post about problems they are having, people might chime in and say "well where did you get it, some coticules aren't made for razors" and then the newbie will of course think that's the problem and they'll start looking for another hone, etc.

When helping people learn remotely over the interweb it's handy to know without reasonable doubt exactly what product they are working with, and a synthetic hone helps with this.

With respect to the hones you mentioned, I'm not sure if they are or are not good hones for razors, but even if they were, a couple things that stood out to me when looking at them... First, they are very narrow for a beginner. At less than 1" wide, it would take some skill to keep the razor flat. Not good for a newbie IMO. They are also pretty short, not that that's the worst thing, though. Second, the W4E is rated at 1200 grit and the W4EE is rated at 8000 grit. I believe you would need something in the 4k range in between, but I could be mistaken as maybe with the diamond plates it's ok to make this jump. Finally, if the edge the W4EE leaves is similar to the edge the D8EE leaves, which is also rated at 8000 grit, I think you would need another stone afterward for a more comfortable shave, although chromium oxide may be enough. I've heard that the D8EE, while rated at 8000 grit, leaves a rougher finish than the norton 8k that is also 8k. Those are just a couple things I noticed. I'm sure Glen will chime in with the real reasons why they aren't good for razors in the first place.

I think many new users want to try something different, or try to find something better to start with or whatever, but the fact is that the norton has proven itself time and time again.

I'm not sure if it's a cost thing, but the cheapest prices I could find for the W4E and W4EE combo is like $45 and the Norton 4k/8k combo is $75. Not too big of a difference, really. Especially considering you can comfortably shave off the norton 8k, but may need more work to shave off the W4EE.

Well there is absolutly nothing I can think of to add to those two well written posts from Zib and PJ... they pretty much summed it up...

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Originally Posted by Spatterdash

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.

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The review is from a member who is using exclusively DMT and barber hones for decades. I did not see in the review a recommendation that it would be suitable for new guys. Actually last year the DMT-EE was recommended by somebody on another site as a single hone solution to new people and I witnessed a lot of newbies immediately jumping on the bandwagon. The 3 people I know who bought one on that recommendation had a lot more problems than those who take other the alternative options.

There are several experienced guys who really like DMTs, more than most, but I have not seen them recommend those instead of the usual fare, certainly not the DMT-EE.

The bottom line is, reviews and endorsements should be taken critically and evaluated properly in context.

One other thing I do have to point out, I am recommending what I think is the easiest hone(s) for a newbie to get started with here, I am not recommending what I think are the best hones out there.....
The Norton system is a starting point, not a ending point, although some are more than satisfied with just that...

Soaking the hones is sometimes used as a negative when referring to Norton stones, myself when thinking of this for a newbie I think it is a good thing to take the time to set up the honing station and to make sure you have everything ready to go, including your brain in the hone zone......

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Originally Posted by pjrage

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With respect to the hones you mentioned, I'm not sure if they are or are not good hones for razors, but even if they were, a couple things that stood out to me when looking at them... First, they are very narrow for a beginner. At less than 1" wide, it would take some skill to keep the razor flat. I think it takes the same degree of skill regardless of hone width. The geometry involved is identical.Not good for a newbie IMO. They are also pretty short, not that that's the worst thing, though. It's easier for most newbs to hone a warped razor on a narrow hone. The w4 series is only 1/32" shorter than some barber hones. I see the size issue as a non-issue, preference mainly. Although; the size "minimum" for me would be around 1/2" by 3".Second, the W4E is rated at 1200 grit and the W4EE is rated at 8000 grit. I believe you would need something in the 4k range in between, but I could be mistaken as maybe with the diamond plates it's ok to make this jump.My normal razor progression is E 1200 to EE 3 micron, works fine. The EE will remove striations from an E in 15 to 35 laps. Finally, if the edge the W4EE leaves is similar to the edge the D8EE leaves, which is also rated at 8000 grit, I think you would need another stone afterward for a more comfortable shave, although chromium oxide may be enough.Chromium oxide would be enough. However, I use newspaper instead of chrome ox (don't like pastes). I've heard that the D8EE, while rated at 8000 grit, leaves a rougher finish than the norton 8k that is also 8k. Those are just a couple things I noticed. I'm sure Glen will chime in with the real reasons why they aren't good for razors in the first place.

I think many new users want to try something different, or try to find something better to start with or whatever, but the fact is that the norton has proven itself time and time again.

I'm not sure if it's a cost thing, but the cheapest prices I could find for the W4E and W4EE combo is like $45 and the Norton 4k/8k combo is $75.OR, this might still be available for $60: Buy Woodcraft DMT 80th Anniversary Diamond Stone Boxed Set, Woodcraft DMT 80th Not too big of a difference, really. Especially considering you can comfortably shave off the norton 8k, but may need more work to shave off the W4EE.I always use newspaper and/or something else after the EE.

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Originally Posted by gugi

The review is from a member who is using exclusively DMT and barber hones for decades.22-23 years for the DMT's. 5 decades for Norton Indias, Norton Arkansas, barber hones, and a bunch of others over the years. I did not see in the review a recommendation that it would be suitable for new guys.I actually would recommend the w4's for a new user, as long as they know to break them in first. Look at it as the only time you'll ever have to "lap" them. Actually last year the DMT-EE was recommended by somebody on another site as a single hone solution to new people and I witnessed a lot of newbies immediately jumping on the bandwagon. The 3 people I know who bought one on that recommendation had a lot more problems than those who take other the alternative options.

There are several experienced guys who really like DMTs, more than most, but I have not seen them recommend those instead of the usual fare, certainly not the DMT-EE.I would (and do) definitely prefer/recommend the DMT EE, in any size, over the Norton 4k/8k.

The bottom line is, reviews and endorsements should be taken critically and evaluated properly in context.

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In answer to the thread's original question of "First hone- which should I get?": Get a good maintenance hone/paste/film finer than an 8k finish... Any of the usual list of finishing hones will work fine. If the straight-bug bites, you will get more than one anyway. If you are going to do all of your own razor maintenance, you will eventually need more than one hone. I like Bart's above answer a lot, too. Good luck with whatever your choice turns out to be.

Thank you everyone for your responses, keep them coming if you have any more to add. I'd like to thank MKEVENSON for picking up a barbers hone for me which I'll pick up in a couple of weeks. I'm also going to go for the set that ZIB has on order from Belgium. These I think will be good starting points for me. Next on the list is probably going to be a Norton if I need something a with a rougher grit down the line.

Serg

Let me ask a stupid question: How does one "break in" the aforementioned DMT hones?

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Originally Posted by Hillie

Let me ask a stupid question: How does one "break in" the aforementioned DMT hones?

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Basically by honing something steel other than razors. I think a lot of guys use chisels or something, but I used the backside of a kitchen knife I didn't care about. Essentially just trying to hone the backside of the knife. It will smooth out the surface of the diamond plate as you hone. You just need something steel that you can try to hone, and that will break it in. You could also try lapping some waterstones to break it in, although I wouldn't try this on one of the finer plates like the 1200 grit (E) or 8000 grit (EE).

The way the DMT plates come, the initial surface is too harsh for honing razors, but as you use it, it will settle in to being a nicer, smoother surface.

Just an update; thanks to mkevenson I have a barbers hone. I've not lapped it but will this week. Anyway, I went ahead and used it as is with 5 laps on sat., stropped on webbed fabric, then red latigo, and finally vintage shell. A better shave than the Clauss was giving me. Reapeated today and an even better shave. As soon as I lap it I'm sure I'll revive that edge to where it needs to be. Next on the list; couticle. Thank you everyone, especially you Mark!

Serg

I'm not sure if you're still looking at this, but I would seriously think about getting a quality 4-sided paddle strop with diamond pastes (3 micron, 1 micron, 0.5 micron and chromium oxide), or if you really need to go more coarse than 3 micron you can shift the CrO to the linen on your hanging strop and do that.

Once you get one hone, as you've already seen you'll be "needing" many. It becomes a sickness and I would suggest unless you really want to put in the time to learn honing for it's own sake that you go with pastes.