Thread: First hone- which should I get?

This is not a recommendation for a hone; more of an observation from another newbie.

Norton's 4k/8k is the usual recommendation for new guys, but like I mentioned to another member, I'm surprised the DMT W4E and the W4EE doesn't get more attention, especially the W4EE (8000 grit).

It's diamond plate, no lapping, only 24 bucks or so (maybe 26) and seems to be a great hone for everyone who has reviewed it. I intend to get these two hones and use a finishing stone at around 12k and chromium for my setup, so as to smooth away that diamond harshness.

Now let me be clear. I haven't had the experience of comparison, and therefore I can't recommend these hones and remain intellectually honest, but those honers who tried them really seem to like these little diamond hones. They describe them as a great option in both price and maintainence, with ease of use as an added bonus. It may not have as much talk on the forum, but what commentary it does have is absolutely positive.

The Norton, however, does seem to present some difficulties. Some say it dishes easy, needs a lot of lapping, collects edge-damaging grit from sandpaper, and costs over a hundred. As a new guy, it made me a little leery, to be honest.

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

Originally Posted by Spatterdash

This is not a recommendation for a hone; more of an observation from another newbie.

Norton's 4k/8k is the usual recommendation for new guys, but like I mentioned to another member, I'm surprised the DMT W4E and the W4EE doesn't get more attention, especially the W4EE (8000 grit).

It's diamond plate, no lapping, only 24 bucks or so (maybe 26) and seems to be a great hone for everyone who has reviewed it. I intend to get these two hones and use a finishing stone at around 12k and chromium for my setup, so as to smooth away that diamond harshness.

Now let me be clear. I haven't had the experience of comparison, and therefore I can't recommend these hones and remain intellectually honest, but those honers who tried them really seem to like these little diamond hones. They describe them as a great option in both price and maintainence, with ease of use as an added bonus. It may not have as much talk on the forum, but what commentary it does have is absolutely positive.

The Norton, however, does seem to present some difficulties. Some say it dishes easy, needs a lot of lapping, collects edge-damaging grit from sandpaper, and costs over a hundred. As a new guy, it made me a little leery, to be honest.

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

I've not had experience with the diamond plates you've mentioned, but one of the biggest reasons that the norton 4k/8k combo at least is recommended so frequently to newbies, is not only because it's a great hone, also because almost everyone has tried it, therefore there is a ton of experience around here on what it can and can't do, what results to expect, and what the potential problems are. So when a newbie has a question, lots of people can answer it quickly and tell them exactly what to try, because they themselves have the same hone(s). If, however, someone bought some less popular hones, and came and asked a question, there may be many less people who have used them, so people might not know what to make of the newbie's findings and would be forced to guess. This could put the newbie in a position of not knowing if it's his hones or his technique, kind of hindering the whole process.

Originally Posted by Spatterdash

More to the point, is the Norton the most recommended due to 'market saturation', i.e., most of the regulars started with one? Are people loathe to recommend a newer hone?

Ummmmm No !!!!! the Norton is the most recommended because it works... and works very well, help is easy to find, and there are plenty of proved systems to use with this hone....

Are there better hones???? you bet, at that entry price ??? not even close....

As PJ so eloquently stated above LOL

One other thing I should add, not knocking DMT's but they are a rather pressure sensitive honing system, and they need to be broken in correctly....
Two things that might hinder a newbie to honing razors....


Update:
I went and looked at the hones you are suggesting here
http://www.heimerdingercutlery.com/c...TOKEN=25208584

This is one time I am going to be very direct.... no offense intended here...
These are not a good choice for honing razors, IMHO and experience, take that statement for what it's worth......

The "what's the best hone" discussion is almost going on continuously for as long as I follow these forums. If you read all posts dealing with this question, you'll come to only one conclusion: everybody likes the hones he uses best.

I am pretty convinced that they all work, although it's common for many newbies to question the quality of the hone, in absence of instant success, just as it's common that a lot of aspiring straight shavers question the sharpness of the razor when they stumble with good technique in the beginning.

My best advice for anyone that wants to buy a first hone, is to know thy self. Do you mind about soaking your hone? Would you mind to lap it frequently? Would you dislike honing with slurry? Would you dislike variability in natural hones? What is your budget? Is a hone just an exchangeable tool for you, or would you also like to cherish it for its beauty and character? Etcetera, etcetera...
Buy something that appeals to you. Stick with your purchase and learn to really use it well, before buying anything else. Once familiar with that first purchase (whether it was a Norton combo, a set of matching Shaptons, 2 DMT's , the Belgian tandem, a couple of Naniwa superstones, or something else), you 'll be happy with your choise, no matter what it was, and you'll be telling newbies in future threads like this one, to buy the same as yours.

Bart.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Update:
I went and looked at the hones you are suggesting here
DMT W4E Pocket Diamond Stone 4" Extra Fine

This is one time I am going to be very direct.... no offense intended here...
These are not a good choice for honing razors, IMHO and experience, take that statement for what it's worth......

No offense taken.

I'll point out that I didn't suggest them, or recommend them. Describing their reviews is not an endorsement.
I can't. I noted that they had very good reviews on this site and was curious why they get no mention.

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.
What led you to that conclusion? I'd want your feedback on these as much as the next experienced honer. I'd appreciate your review of these as well.

Let's not forget I'm a newbie, too. I have questions as to why Norton is the deafening answer to the first hone question, when searching the forum seems to show a far more nuanced field of options.

Originally Posted by Spatterdash

No offense taken.

I'll point out that I didn't suggest them, or recommend them. Describing their reviews is not an endorsement.
I can't. I noted that they had very good reviews on this site and was curious why they get no mention.

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.
What led you to that conclusion? I'd want your feedback on these as much as the next experienced honer. I'd appreciate your review of these as well.

Let's not forget I'm a newbie, too. I have questions as to why Norton is the deafening answer to the first hone question, when searching the forum seems to show a far more nuanced field of options.

In addition to everything I wrote as well as Glen and Bart, I forgot to mention that I think an important factor in recommending the norton is also that it's synthetic and therefore consistent.

Basically, if a newbie gets a Norton 4k/8k, it is guaranteed to be a great stone for honing razors that most people have used it and can help with, and this puts nearly any problems solely on the shoulders of the newbie, preventing him/her from blaming the hone, and working on their technique instead.

If they buy a coticule for example, and post about problems they are having, people might chime in and say "well where did you get it, some coticules aren't made for razors" and then the newbie will of course think that's the problem and they'll start looking for another hone, etc.

When helping people learn remotely over the interweb it's handy to know without reasonable doubt exactly what product they are working with, and a synthetic hone helps with this.

With respect to the hones you mentioned, I'm not sure if they are or are not good hones for razors, but even if they were, a couple things that stood out to me when looking at them... First, they are very narrow for a beginner. At less than 1" wide, it would take some skill to keep the razor flat. Not good for a newbie IMO. They are also pretty short, not that that's the worst thing, though. Second, the W4E is rated at 1200 grit and the W4EE is rated at 8000 grit. I believe you would need something in the 4k range in between, but I could be mistaken as maybe with the diamond plates it's ok to make this jump. Finally, if the edge the W4EE leaves is similar to the edge the D8EE leaves, which is also rated at 8000 grit, I think you would need another stone afterward for a more comfortable shave, although chromium oxide may be enough. I've heard that the D8EE, while rated at 8000 grit, leaves a rougher finish than the norton 8k that is also 8k. Those are just a couple things I noticed. I'm sure Glen will chime in with the real reasons why they aren't good for razors in the first place.

I think many new users want to try something different, or try to find something better to start with or whatever, but the fact is that the norton has proven itself time and time again.

I'm not sure if it's a cost thing, but the cheapest prices I could find for the W4E and W4EE combo is like $45 and the Norton 4k/8k combo is $75. Not too big of a difference, really. Especially considering you can comfortably shave off the norton 8k, but may need more work to shave off the W4EE.

Well there is absolutly nothing I can think of to add to those two well written posts from Zib and PJ... they pretty much summed it up...

Originally Posted by Spatterdash

You say that it is your opinion that these are not a good choice for honing razors. The review of the W4EE in the review section of this site seems contrary to this.

The review is from a member who is using exclusively DMT and barber hones for decades. I did not see in the review a recommendation that it would be suitable for new guys. Actually last year the DMT-EE was recommended by somebody on another site as a single hone solution to new people and I witnessed a lot of newbies immediately jumping on the bandwagon. The 3 people I know who bought one on that recommendation had a lot more problems than those who take other the alternative options.

There are several experienced guys who really like DMTs, more than most, but I have not seen them recommend those instead of the usual fare, certainly not the DMT-EE.

The bottom line is, reviews and endorsements should be taken critically and evaluated properly in context.

One other thing I do have to point out, I am recommending what I think is the easiest hone(s) for a newbie to get started with here, I am not recommending what I think are the best hones out there.....
The Norton system is a starting point, not a ending point, although some are more than satisfied with just that...

Soaking the hones is sometimes used as a negative when referring to Norton stones, myself when thinking of this for a newbie I think it is a good thing to take the time to set up the honing station and to make sure you have everything ready to go, including your brain in the hone zone......

Originally Posted by pjrage

...
With respect to the hones you mentioned, I'm not sure if they are or are not good hones for razors, but even if they were, a couple things that stood out to me when looking at them... First, they are very narrow for a beginner. At less than 1" wide, it would take some skill to keep the razor flat. I think it takes the same degree of skill regardless of hone width. The geometry involved is identical.Not good for a newbie IMO. They are also pretty short, not that that's the worst thing, though. It's easier for most newbs to hone a warped razor on a narrow hone. The w4 series is only 1/32" shorter than some barber hones. I see the size issue as a non-issue, preference mainly. Although; the size "minimum" for me would be around 1/2" by 3".Second, the W4E is rated at 1200 grit and the W4EE is rated at 8000 grit. I believe you would need something in the 4k range in between, but I could be mistaken as maybe with the diamond plates it's ok to make this jump.My normal razor progression is E 1200 to EE 3 micron, works fine. The EE will remove striations from an E in 15 to 35 laps. Finally, if the edge the W4EE leaves is similar to the edge the D8EE leaves, which is also rated at 8000 grit, I think you would need another stone afterward for a more comfortable shave, although chromium oxide may be enough.Chromium oxide would be enough. However, I use newspaper instead of chrome ox (don't like pastes). I've heard that the D8EE, while rated at 8000 grit, leaves a rougher finish than the norton 8k that is also 8k. Those are just a couple things I noticed. I'm sure Glen will chime in with the real reasons why they aren't good for razors in the first place.

I think many new users want to try something different, or try to find something better to start with or whatever, but the fact is that the norton has proven itself time and time again.

I'm not sure if it's a cost thing, but the cheapest prices I could find for the W4E and W4EE combo is like $45 and the Norton 4k/8k combo is $75.OR, this might still be available for $60: Buy Woodcraft DMT 80th Anniversary Diamond Stone Boxed Set, Woodcraft DMT 80th Not too big of a difference, really. Especially considering you can comfortably shave off the norton 8k, but may need more work to shave off the W4EE.I always use newspaper and/or something else after the EE.

Originally Posted by gugi

The review is from a member who is using exclusively DMT and barber hones for decades.22-23 years for the DMT's. 5 decades for Norton Indias, Norton Arkansas, barber hones, and a bunch of others over the years. I did not see in the review a recommendation that it would be suitable for new guys.I actually would recommend the w4's for a new user, as long as they know to break them in first. Look at it as the only time you'll ever have to "lap" them. Actually last year the DMT-EE was recommended by somebody on another site as a single hone solution to new people and I witnessed a lot of newbies immediately jumping on the bandwagon. The 3 people I know who bought one on that recommendation had a lot more problems than those who take other the alternative options.

There are several experienced guys who really like DMTs, more than most, but I have not seen them recommend those instead of the usual fare, certainly not the DMT-EE.I would (and do) definitely prefer/recommend the DMT EE, in any size, over the Norton 4k/8k.

The bottom line is, reviews and endorsements should be taken critically and evaluated properly in context.

In answer to the thread's original question of "First hone- which should I get?": Get a good maintenance hone/paste/film finer than an 8k finish... Any of the usual list of finishing hones will work fine. If the straight-bug bites, you will get more than one anyway. If you are going to do all of your own razor maintenance, you will eventually need more than one hone. I like Bart's above answer a lot, too. Good luck with whatever your choice turns out to be.