Split from all the Coticule threads:::

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Originally Posted by gssixgun http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...s/viewpost.gif
Ok so let me see if I have this right??? I can use any stone I want, just so long as it is one stone, from bevel to polish, and then shave, damaged razors are not included??? and I get a slurry stone????

That is the quest???

The Answer:
I wouldn't call it a quest, but yeah, with the one coticule honing idea, it was that you could use the single stone, with a slurry stone, to achieve an acceptable shaving edge. I guess you could call it a challenge or a quest or even a parlor trick or what have you, but I think all it was ever meant to be was another tool in the honing toolbox, it's still up to the honer to decide which tool to use :shrug:

Serious damage to razors (chips) don't count IMHO, and I don't think were ever meant to. Maybe you could hone out chips on the coticule with slurry, but IMO it's outside the realm of practicality.

OK just like I (and others) said in the other One Stone honing threads and the Coticule threads... It has nothing to do with the stone....here

I had to prove this to myself even though I knew it would work, I said any 8k stone would do this and I used a Norton 8k and 200 laps to prove it to myself tonight....

Starting with a Beau Brummel that had a tiny chip I breadknifed it out really fast, leaving a completely flat dull edge, hey I wanted a challenge...

I did a quick dressing of the Norton with a DGLP leaving the slurry on it then used a Norton Prep stone to mix up some even thicker slurry.... It took me about 100 laps to get an even bevel cut... I changed the layer of tape at that time re-dressed the stone and just used the 8k slurry to continue, at 60 laps I was popping arm hair I re-dressed the stone rinsed it totally clean and did 20 laps I rinsed the stone again and did 20 very, very light laps letting the stone go to almost dry... The bevel is a nice small and even, the edge is plenty sharp and hasn't even been stropped yet... I am going to strop 50/100 linen and leather in the morning and shave it but I can tell already it will shave fine....

I would be willing to bet that just about any stone around 8k can do the same thing..... Try it yerself and see...

Youre most likly right actauly

While this may seem like a worthwile quest to a minimalist... I'm going to pass and stick to my packrat ways and get all the stones I need to make it more entertaining for myself :p

Glen, you have WAY to much time on your hands :p

Dude!! One stone?? Are you crazy? Why would you do that? The whole world has gone mad!

In fact, I completely agree, and I thought there had been a general consensus in the past that with enough time you could do anything with any stone - if not in practice then at least in theory.

I am seriously thinking of starting a One Nakayama thread, with final results to be posted in 2087. :D

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Dude!! One stone?? Are you crazy? Why would you do that? The whole world has gone mad!

In fact, I completely agree, and I thought there had been a general consensus in the past that with enough time you could do anything with any stone - if not in practice then at least in theory.

I am seriously thinking of starting a One Nakayama thread, with final results to be posted in 2087. :D

James.

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Oh god, I may have to try this with my Nakayama.:confused:

If I do, I will post some results.

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Originally Posted by joke1176

Oh god, I may have to try this with my Nakayama.:confused:

If I do, I will post some results.

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Bravo!! :rock:

If you do it I will do it too. The next razor I sand the bevel off of. Let the (very, very, very slow) challenge commence!

James.

Cool experiment Glen!

Now, what are your thoughts on the method? A complete joke? A parlor trick at best? A viable honing method?

I'm not asking if you're going to use this method every time you hone a razor now -- clearly you aren't.. Just curious if you think it's utterly ridiculous, or actually "not too bad."

Also, out of curiosity, in your opinion, would the shave be better off the norton 8k or off the coticule? That is, if you had to pick one or the other to be your only stone, which would it be?

And joke, please don't destroy your nakayama doing this :nono:!! But if you do, please do post the results :rock::p

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Cool experiment Glen!

Now, what are your thoughts on the method? A complete joke? A parlor trick at best? A viable honing method?

I'm not asking if you're going to use this method every time you hone a razor now -- clearly you aren't.. Just curious if you think it's utterly ridiculous, or actually "not too bad."

Also, out of curiosity, in your opinion, would the shave be better off the norton 8k or off the coticule? That is, if you had to pick one or the other to be your only stone, which would it be?

And joke, please don't destroy your nakayama doing this :nono:!! But if you do, please do post the results :rock::p

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So...taking a razor from a breadknife to something that he can already tell will be a fine shaving edge...

How is that not useful? To me, it sounds like a very VERY helpful thing. What's wrong with it?

I think you might have missed the point of the experiment, at least my point in doing it was to show that it is still the person using the stone, not any one stone that gets a razor to shave....

Using one stone and making it into a combo stone when there are no combo stones available makes perfect sense to me... I know I can still shave and if I were packing a go bag that would be a way to go....

Even if I were a minimalist and only wanted one stone my 1 stone would be a Norton 4/8 after this experiment.... Before this experiment I probably would have said a BBW/Yellow Coti but now I am pretty sure I can beat the edge off the Coti with the Norton 8k for shaving comfort.....

Now somebody with real minimalist ideas would most likely chose a two sided barber's hone, but guess what guys, somebody else can do that experiment :gl:

Me, I am back to taking the easy way to a sharper razor which includes many, many, stones :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you might have missed the point of the experiment, at least my point in doing it was to show that it is still the person using the stone, not any one stone that gets a razor to shave....

Using one stone and making it into a combo stone when there are no combo stones available makes perfect sense to me... I know I can still shave and if I were packing a go bag that would be a way to go....

Even if I were a minimalist and only wanted one stone my 1 stone would be a Norton 4/8 after this experiment.... Before this experiment I probably would have said a BBW/Yellow Coti but now I am pretty sure I can beat the edge off the Coti with the Norton 8k for shaving comfort.....

Now somebody with real minimalist ideas would most likely chose a two sided barber's hone, but guess what guys, somebody else can do that experiment :gl:

Me, I am back to taking the easy way to a sharper razor which includes many, many, stones :)

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Great summary!

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you might have missed the point of the experiment, at least my point in doing it was to show that it is still the person using the stone, not any one stone that gets a razor to shave....

Using one stone and making it into a combo stone when there are no combo stones available makes perfect sense to me... I know I can still shave and if I were packing a go bag that would be a way to go....

Even if I were a minimalist and only wanted one stone my 1 stone would be a Norton 4/8 after this experiment.... Before this experiment I probably would have said a BBW/Yellow Coti but now I am pretty sure I can beat the edge off the Coti with the Norton 8k for shaving comfort.....

Now somebody with real minimalist ideas would most likely chose a two sided barber's hone, but guess what guys, somebody else can do that experiment :gl:

Me, I am back to taking the easy way to a sharper razor which includes many, many, stones :)

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Now this is what I call reasonable. Indeed, it's possible. it's not the only way, it's not even the best way, but it certainly isn't nonsense.

And now I really want to get a 6K or 8K hone and see how it works...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Using one stone and making it into a combo stone when there are no combo stones available makes perfect sense to me...

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This concept was foreign to me a month ago! And I have read quite a few posts in the forum, obviously not all but I am just saying Bart's method was new to me when I read it. Thanks for explaining and for doing the Norton experiment.

So how much faster is it to use a full set of hones on your average full hollow razor than it was for you to use just the 8k norton? Bart's honing portion of his video was only 3 or 4 minutes long - for someone like me who usually spends 15 minutes to 45 minutes just to hone one razor (back to the hone, back to the hone) it seems to indicate the same thing you mentioned, it is not so much the hone as it is the honer

Glen, Been there, Done it, tried it. I went to the Norton 220k, breadknifed, the progressed to 1k, 4k, 8k, then some lapps on the Coticule, etc....I think the Coti may have worked, but it would have taken some time IMHO.....I think there are better stones for the job, IMO, it's a finisher..I had a razor the other day with some chips in the bevel, I have a bunch of different Coticules, I didn't even go there, I went for the Norton's. 220k, I thought about the DMT's to get the chips out, but the Norton made quick work of it, Used the above progression. Be careful with those buffers guys....But Glen, you feel you can get a smooter edge off a Norton 8k, than a Coticule. Are we talking, stopping right there and shaving, or going to something else after that?

This is exactly why I did this with the Escher, Chinese 12K, Thuringen, Nakayama and Arkansas Translucent. I could every one to take a razor from dull to shaving sharp, but it was not consistent with regard to time or the number of strokes. Did work though, across the board. Interesting that even with the Norton 8K, you can do the same thing.

Thanks Glen!!

Lynn

As business agent and International organizer for local 272 HADicts I have to ask you to cease and desist from spreading this blasphemy :nono: . At least a dozen hones in progressive grits with glass bottoms and Japanese kanji on top are recommended for honing a razor. It is in the Wiki...... I can't find the link right now but as soon as I do I will post it. :p ";"

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Originally Posted by Lynn

This is exactly why I did this with the Escher, Chinese 12K, Thuringen, Nakayama and Arkansas Translucent. I could every one to take a razor from dull to shaving sharp, but it was not consistent with regard to time or the number of strokes. Did work though, across the board. Interesting that even with the Norton 8K, you can do the same thing.

Thanks Glen!!

Lynn

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Awesome, Lynn! In your opinion, of all the stones you tried it with, which would you grab if someone forced your hand to use this method again?

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

FWIW just before the latest one coticule honing thread appeared, I had used a Japanese natural for setting the bevel, honing and polishing, just for S&G and it worked.

Using a finishing hone to do all the grunt work or even an 8k, is also not very practical. Its much faster an economical to use the correct tools for the job. Using finishing stones, is basically for people with too much time on their hands.

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Thanks for the effort and for posting Glen. :rock: Early on Randydance told me that you could set a bevel with a 4k Norton but a 1k would be faster. If the edge was in decent shape to begin with the 4k might be preferable as the 1k would leave deeper scratches to clean up with the 4k. So when the do it all with the coticule thread came up I was resistant to the idea because i have the 1k Norton, and the DMTE for the grunt work. So now we know that the whole operation can be performed with one 8k or higher finishing stone and that is great if that is all you have. I did it with a coticule/slurry once just to prove to myself that I could but in the future this home boy will be reaching for the DMT when it is bevel setting time. :) Many thanks to Lynn for clearing the land and building the runway in this straight razor shaving hobby.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Dude!! One stone?? Are you crazy? Why would you do that? The whole world has gone mad

I am seriously thinking of starting a One Nakayama thread, with final results to be posted in 2087. :D

James.

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when you got there would you please PM ME the result

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

when you got there would you please PM ME the result

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We we be long gone by then Sham. We will know if there is a heaven or the hotter alternative. There are probably more rocks in hell though. :D

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Awesome, Lynn! In your opinion, of all the stones you tried it with, which would you grab if someone forced your hand to use this method again?

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Tough question. The Coticule, Escher and Thuringen produced pretty similar results with a few variations in the number of strokes or times to the hone. I did like the Escher results the best, but not the most common stone out there. I would probably use either of them as I wouldn't want to subject my Nakayama to this kind of abuse all the time. It actually produced the best finished results.

Lynn

After the shave:

Here is the only way I can think to describe this, keep in mind I know this razor well it is one of my favs....

First to clear some things up I stopped right there no pastes no nothing I stropped it up on a SRD Premium I before the shave 50/100 just like i would any razor fresh off the hones...

I am going to compare this to a car I know well so I hope this makes sense...

This BB when tweaked out for me to shave with is a Mustang GT KR 500 HP all tweaked in the suspension

What I shaved with this morning is still a Mustang but more of a V-6 plain Jane version....

Same car they both get you there but one makes the drive much more exciting,, leaving a razor at this level would drive me nutz as I know there is way better....

Does it shave? yes, does it shave smoothly? yes, Could I shave with this all the time? yes, would I want better if I knew it was available? Hell yes

I guess what I am saying is I am not a minimalist at all when it comes to shaving with a straight I want the best, I pamper myself in this one thing, so cutting the corners on having the best stones out there just doesnt makes sense to me....

Time wise???? hmmmmmm good question this took 200 laps, I could have done it in 100 and had a better edge...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

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,, leaving a razor at this level would drive me nutz as I know there is way better...

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OHHH REALLLLY?

Great. Now i feel a lot better. thank You

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

There are probably more rocks in hell though. :D

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Been there and seen it. Their color black and very sharp edges. when hits hurts badly.hehehhehe

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I guess what I am saying is I am not a minimalist at all when it comes to shaving with a straight I want the best, I pamper myself in this one thing, so cutting the corners on having the best stones out there just doesnt makes sense to me....

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This reminds me of getting my favorite coticule. He isn't posting on SRP lately but for those of you who remember The Topher you'll recall that he knows his way around a razor hone. He lives near me (30 miles one way) and was sort of a honing mentor to me when I first came around. He bought an 8x3 natural from Howard to try a coticule out.

His usual routine had been the Norton 4/8 and finishing with a Shapton Pro 15k. He worked with the coticule on a few razors and shaved tested each of them. His conclusion was that he could get them sharp enough to shave but not "scary sharp" (his words) and that is what he preferred. So he offered me the stone for what he had in it and I bought it.

I found the edges that I got off of that stone to be just spiffy for me. I found razors that Chris (The Topher) honed to be almost too sharp for my taste. So some of us want that mustang with the tuned suspension while others want that falcon with the six cylinder and the stick on the column. (damn, I wish I had one of those now) :D

I need to clarify here guys, as I can see a trend...

There is a difference in smoothness not sharpness per se...

I have said this numerous times here

approximate grits to do things on a blade
below 1k = damage repair
1k-3k = bevel set
3k-6k = sharpen
7k-10k = polish
above 10k = finish

All you are doing here is using the slurry to make a combo hone on one stone nothing more nothing less...

If you are talking in engineering terms yes I might get a few microns more out of the edge by using a finisher or pastes but more than that, I am going to get smoothness....
At a 4k level regardless of stone, slurry, or magic dust, you are pretty much at the sharpness level you need to be at, after that you are polishing and smoothing the edge.... This of course depends on the hands not the hone.... I actually did the exact same tests as I always have done when honing the blade last night I did a TNT and when the blade was grippy (like a 1k) I lightened the slurry then I got to a point that the entire razor was popping arm hair (like a 4k) I rinsed and went to the bare stone... nothing changed other than I had to do more work with the slurry....

I hope that clarifies it

Thanks Glen. I was talking to Lee in chat today about what i'm looking for with the different stones in my progression. This right here nails it.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I need to clarify here guys, as I can see a trend...

There is a difference in smoothness not sharpness per se...

I have said this numerous times here

approximate grits to do things on a blade
below 1k = damage repair
1k-3k = bevel set
3k-6k = sharpen
7k-10k = polish
above 10k = finish

All you are doing here is using the slurry to make a combo hone on one stone nothing more nothing less...

If you are talking in engineering terms yes I might get a few microns more out of the edge by using a finisher or pastes but more than that, I am going to get smoothness....
At a 4k level regardless of stone, slurry, or magic dust, you are pretty much at the sharpness level you need to be at, after that you are polishing and smoothing the edge.... This of course depends on the hands not the hone.... I actually did the exact same tests as I always have done when honing the blade last night I did a TNT and when the blade was grippy (like a 1k) I lightened the slurry then I got to a point that the entire razor was popping arm hair (like a 4k) I rinsed and went to the bare stone... nothing changed other than I had to do more work with the slurry....

I hope that clarifies it

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So Glen, according to that table, that would be why many people say you can improve on a coticule edge with an escher or the like?

The coticule can get you to a higher polishing level, but not necessarily into the "finishing" level. Which is also why you can shave off the Norton 8K, it falls into the beginning of that polishing stage.

I have always liked the coti edge, I may need to just suck it up and get a Chinese 12K to have a finisher in my line-up.

Thanks!

Yes sir I do believe that you can get better, the C12k if you look at Tim Zowada's website and pics of finishers shows it as pretty darn good...
You always, always, have to put the disclaimer in there with naturals though (these are a natural product and there can be variances between the stones)
You can really do some playing around with the Norton and the Coti and I am sure many others to get a wee bit more out of them using them almost dry too... I would bet that yes you are pushing the limit no matter what tricks you use at the 10k level though...

Along the same lines as the rest of this thread, I have used a Swaty for the same purpose--from bevel to polish. It was a novel experience, but not one worth repeating.

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

The impractical part I am/was trying to point out apart from the slowness and stuff is, you are wasting away limited natural resources by grinding your natural hones into slurries. And after so many slurries you will need to lap the hone to make it flat again.

Each to his own, but I'd rather waste away a 100$ hone which I know can always be replaced, than doing it with a several 100$ natural hone, be it a coticule, Escher or Japanese natural.

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How is using a Nagura on a Japanese natural different from using a slurry stone with a coticule?