Shapton Glass or Naniwa?

I am looking to pick up my first hone series. I just received my first hone, a Naniwa 12k, and lapping plate, the DMT 8C from SRD.

I was thinking of ordering the Naniwa 1k, 5k, and 8k from SRD, which runs about $140 shipped.

However, I see that there's a sale on Shapton Glass Hones, that would cost about $114 shipped.

$26 isn't that big a difference, but still I'd rather not pay if if there's no real difference, or especially if the consensus is that the Shaptons are better performers.

I won't be honing tons, but still want a very, very good set of hones.

The fact that my last hone in a series would be the Naniwa 12k shouldn't mean it's better to stay with Naniwa lower in the series, right?

What say you? Do I go Nani or Shapton?

I have the Shapton Glass stones in 1k, 3k, and 16k. My only Nani is a 150 brick (love that brick) but have used the other Nani's up to 10k.

I got the GS line due to price and space, hard to beat really. And they are good stones, I only use them for my kitchen knives now though, and tougher restoration straights.

Personally is cash and space where not an issue, I'd probably have gone with the Nani stones.

I actually own both sets....

If you didn't own any hones I would say it really is a moot point as these are both top line sets of stones...

But since you own the Naniwa 12k then I would say get the rest of the Naniwa set...

Shaptons don't really play that well with others, they tend to like other Shapton stones ... The Shapton System is really more of a true system then the other hones....

Honestly though you could use either...This is just my opinion and YMMV but you did ask for an opinion....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I actually own both sets....

If you didn't own any hones I would say it really is a moot point as these are both top line sets of stones...

But since you own the Naniwa 12k then I would say get the rest of the Naniwa set...

Shaptons don't really play that well with others, they tend to like other Shapton stones ... The Shapton System is really more of a true system then the other hones....

Honestly though you could use either...This is just my opinion and YMMV but you did ask for an opinion....

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Glen, I've heard this before about Shaptons not playing well with others.. Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Is there only a certain grit range that don't play well with others? I ask because it seems like a lot of people use their 16k and even 30k after other non-Shapton stones, not part of the system. Are these exceptions? Are some of the lower grit shaptons, like maybe the 1k and below, also exceptions?

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Glen, I've heard this before about Shaptons not playing well with others.. Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Is there only a certain grit range that don't play well with others? I ask because it seems like a lot of people use their 16k and even 30k after other non-Shapton stones, not part of the system. Are these exceptions? Are some of the lower grit shaptons, like maybe the 1k and below, also exceptions?

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The Sweet 16 is just that, that stone works great after other stones...

It also could just be me too but the 1-2-4-8 seem to really do the best together as a system just like they were designed to do... I have heard others voice the same thing but who knows... My opinion is that yes they work better together and I get the best results that way....

I have only barely messed with the 30k so I don't have a true opinion there...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The Sweet 16 is just that, that stone works great after other stones...

It also could just be me too but the 1-2-4-8 seem to really do the best together as a system just like they were designed to do... I have heard others voice the same thing but who knows... My opinion is that yes they work better together and I get the best results that way....

I have only barely messed with the 30k so I don't have a true opinion there...

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If I may jump in here,

I agree with Glen, the Shaptons progressions are nice, and they are meant to be a complete system, which usually makes them a "closed" one. But I think they don't play well with others because when jumping to Shaptons from another brand, there is a gap between the characteristics of the stones.

For example, Norton and King stones lose their flatness faster than Shaptons, and if this goes unchecked, it only gets compounded with time. If the Norton or King stone is dished, the angle of the edge is higher than if the stone were flat. You could easily interchange the Norton and King because their stones will conform to the edge from the other stone faster. But when jumping to the Shapton, it requires more work to "adjust" the edge to the flatness of the stone. Maintenance is another issue - All stones need to be lapped, but "softer" stones like the Nortons and Kings will need lapping more often than the "harder" Shaptons. (not to mention that Shapton conveniently has its own line of lapping equipment)

IMO, it's these two facts that really drive many people towards sticking with only the Shaptons. For honesters, it's more of an issue of preference because they understand the different finishes each brand of stone makes, and can work around them, but for the average Joe it's about getting quick and positive results.
:)

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

If I may jump in here,

I agree with Glen, the Shaptons progressions are nice, and they are meant to be a complete system, which usually makes them a "closed" one. But I think they don't play well with others because when jumping to Shaptons from another brand, there is a gap between the characteristics of the stones.

For example, Norton and King stones lose their flatness faster than Shaptons, and if this goes unchecked, it only gets compounded with time. If the Norton or King stone is dished, the angle of the edge is higher than if the stone were flat. You could easily interchange the Norton and King because their stones will conform to the edge from the other stone faster. But when jumping to the Shapton, it requires more work to "adjust" the edge to the flatness of the stone. Maintenance is another issue - All stones need to be lapped, but "softer" stones like the Nortons and Kings will need lapping more often than the "harder" Shaptons. (not to mention that Shapton conveniently has its own line of lapping equipment)

IMO, it's these two facts that really drive many people towards sticking with only the Shaptons. For honesters, it's more of an issue of preference because they understand the different finishes each brand of stone makes, and can work around them, but for the average Joe it's about getting quick and positive results.
:)

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Tom, you sir, I believe, coined a new term that I love. "Honester". I view a Honemeister as someone who is utterly accomplished in all aspects of razor honing. "Honesters" are the rest of us aspiring Honemeisters.

I'm a Honester and proud of it! Very cool.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Tom, you sir, I believe, coined a new term that I love. "Honester". I view a Honemeister as someone who is utterly accomplished in all aspects of razor honing. "Honesters" are the rest of us aspiring Honemeisters.

I'm a Honester and proud of it! Very cool.

Chris L

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+1 I would say the same for me.

Tom, clarify something for me. I am under the impression that Shaptons should be lapped before every honing session because the polymer binder changes and the stone will not remain flat from day to day ? I know this is the way my Shapton pros are because I have flattened them and checked with a straight edge the following day and they are no longer flat. OTOH, my Nortons will stay flat until I wear them down from honing. I know the glass series is a different animal though but I was under the impression that they are also a polymer binder ? __________________

the Shaptons are on sale right now

http://straightrazorpalace.com/vendo...ndustries.html


I don't have, nor have I ever had a Naniwa.

I'm going to get rid of the rest of my hones and go Shapton.
I do have one already and am quite impressed.
It seems to work just fine going from a DMT 1200 to the shapton 4k, to the UberSwaty, to an Escher.

If they work even better as a team then I'm REALLY excited !!

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1 I would say the same for me.

Tom, clarify something for me. I am under the impression that Shaptons should be lapped before every honing session because the polymer binder changes and the stone will not remain flat from day to day ? I know this is the way my Shapton pros are because I have flattened them and checked with a straight edge the following day and they are no longer flat. OTOH, my Nortons will stay flat until I wear them down from honing. I know the glass series is a different animal though but I was under the impression that they are also a polymer binder ? __________________

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How uneven are we talking?

To be honest, I never checked. I've always lapped after I sharpen as part of my cleanup. When I sharpen my reed knives, I use an assembly line approach. First I use my #320 pro on all of the knives I will be doing. I turn the stone with each side of the blade, then lap before the next knife. When those are done, I set up my #1,500, 5K, and either the 8K or 15K, depending on the knife, and go right down the line, wiping off the knife after each stone. I turn the stones around after each knife, and then lap all of them, so after the first couple of knives, it doesn't really matter. I try to keep the #320 pretty flat, but I know that I will make up for any dishing on the #1,500. I go for consistency over precision.

I'm reminded of Howard when he said that the meteorologist measured the change in the stone surface area with slight temperature variations. I guess the Shaptons may fluctuate on the surface because it is a solid mass, so the core of the stones are cooler, or warmer than the outside surfaces, which may explain the unevenness. Nortons and the like are porous, which means air holes allow the stone to "breathe", so the air that flows through the stones keep the core and the outside surfaces at a constant temperature when not is use.

Either way, while I think precision has its place in sharpening, the second you take a pass over any stone, precision is lost because the sharpening medium wears, and so does the blade. I think it is a little over kill!:overkill: That's such an awesome smiley!
BTW, as much as I'd like credit for the honester, I must admit that I got it off of my spell check, and it really seemed more fitting than Honemiesters, which does sound a little elitist. After all, where do I fit in if I sharpen other things professionally, but not straight razors (yet)?:thinking:

I thought everything was uneven as soon as you started honing on it ?

I would also like to credit Tom for not plugging his sale in this thread.
I'm impressed.

Where's Howard and his Metrologist?

Tom is the professional series really made a polymer binder?
Cause I've read today that: "The stone is fired to a high temperature with a mixture of fine #X000 abrasive and a clay binder."

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Originally Posted by 0livia

Tom is the professional series really made a polymer binder?
Cause I've read today that: "The stone is fired to a high temperature with a mixture of fine #X000 abrasive and a clay binder."

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I don't think the pro series are made with a polymer binder. I had this conversation with Harrelson several years ago, but for the life of me, I can't remember what he said:(. I was more interested in the abrasives in the pros, not the binder, which I do remember is silicon carbide.

I still have an unanswered email that I sent Harrleson several weeks ago. I think I'll try him again...

Yes, would be interesting to know.

this may or may not be helpful

but when I was lapping my shapton glass in the sink, the removed material floated and had the look of finely ground plastic (certain way it clumps)

I had come to the conclusion while using it that it was polymer
I have no idea, nor have I read what it is, but those were my observations.

EDIT
just saw we are talking PRO series
opps :gaah:

OK I WANT TO KNOW TOO !!!

GW, if you have a Shapton, just catch some next time, dry it and heat it up.
The smell should be obvious.

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I don't think the pro series are made with a polymer binder. I had this conversation with Harrelson several years ago, but for the life of me, I can't remember what he said:(. I was more interested in the abrasives in the pros, not the binder, which I do remember is silicon carbide.

I still have an unanswered email that I sent Harrleson several weeks ago. I think I'll try him again...

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Forum member and hone freak Blaireau hasn't been posting lately. He is a scientist in the field of Polymers. He is a hone collector and he has the whole Shapton series. Here is a post he made on the topic when he was more active in the forums.

As far as how flat it needs to be, I tend to be a perfectionist. That is why I went for the $ for the GDLP. I want it as flat as I can get it. If this isn't 'that' important why do we even bother. BTW, I can feel a difference between a freshly flattened hone and one that is less so. YMMV. :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

As far as how flat it needs to be, I tend to be a perfectionist. That is why I went for the $ for the GDLP. I want it as flat as I can get it. If this isn't 'that' important why do we even bother. BTW, I can feel a difference between a freshly flattened hone and one that is less so. YMMV. :)

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For my #320 and #220, I don't worry too much because as long as I'm in the ballpark, I am personally OK. For my #1K and higher grit stones, I am a bit more picky. To try to keep Coarse grits completely flat would take a lot of time, and would wear the stone more through lapping rather than through sharpening.

I wanted to post this before, but I have noticed that even though the DGLP, DRLP, and lapping plates are very flat, one can still lap unevenly - either by accident, or on purpose.

By accident - With the compact, if you sprinkle a little too much powder in one place (get a buildup) or not evenly, then your stone will be unevenly lapped as a result. Also, if you put uneven pressure on the lapping late or stone, or go too far off the plate while lapping on any product, you can get a tapered stone.

On purpose - You can manipulate the area of lapping by pulling the stone too far down or up the plate, which focuses the lapping of the top and bottom areas, which usually need the most lapping. You can also purposely direct pressure to the area you want lapped. This helps save the plates and the stones. (This is more for the #220 and #320 stones. On the 1K+, I don't need to play with the lapping technique that often.)

As for feeling the stones flatness, I agree. I can feel when a stone is not flat, or when it is loosing its flatness. (Sometimes its even fun to feel the waves in really dipped stones:))That's one of the perks you quickly get by using consistently flat stones. It becomes very annoying to use someone else's not as perfect equipment. I think instead of Shapton stones not playing well with others, it should be PEOPLE who use Shaptons don't play well with others!";"

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Originally Posted by 0livia

Yes, would be interesting to know.

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Email sent to Harrelson.......:)

Y'know Tom, I don't sharpen knives so I don't lap anything lower than 1K. I have the 325 diamond plate if I do have to go to that low a grit and the 600 so there is no lapping on those.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Tom, you sir, I believe, coined a new term that I love. "Honester". I view a Honemeister as someone who is utterly accomplished in all aspects of razor honing. "Honesters" are the rest of us aspiring Honemeisters.

I'm a Honester and proud of it! Very cool.

Chris L

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Hell, at this point I'm just trying to pass as a honer!

If folks don't mind my re-hijacking my thread back to its original destination. . .

So is there a consensus that since I have a Naniwa 12k, I'd be better off with lower grit Naniwa stones, rather than the less expensive Shapton Glass?

You would be better of with a lower grit hone.;)

Ultimately it is your journey- what made you choose the one you have?

The differences between one name and another are largely subjective.

~Switching between hard and soft stones can cause problems if one should begin to treat them same.
~Using very hard stones could be problematic for an inexperienced whetman. ......well, these things have happened to me

-there is always compromise and a general lack of universality when it comes to hone stones.

Another thing to consider is the ease of polishing out the previous grit's scratch pattern. I don't know how aggressively (deep) the Shaptons cut, but if it's more than the Naniwas, it might take longer to remove the scratches on the 12k.

(FWIW, I recently got 5,8,12k superstones & am seriously considering adding a 1k because it takes forever to remove the striations from the D8E (my current bevel setter) on the 5k. Right now, I use 6 um lapping film on glass to clean the blade up before the 5k--kind of a waste of steel, but those scratches are deep.

Off topic, but has anybody else noticed how thirsty the 12k is (it really sucks up water when honing)?

EDIT TO THE ABOVE:

I went ahead & got the 1K as well--I like it. It doesn't seem to eat the spine as much as the D8E did. Makes the job on the 5K faster as well without those deep scratches to polish out.

My original 12K was defective--SRD exchanged it for a new one which works perfectly.:) They now come in kind of a greyish-pink color.

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Tom is the professional series really made a polymer binder?
Cause I've read today that: "The stone is fired to a high temperature with a mixture of fine #X000 abrasive and a clay binder."

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It has been a while since you asked but I will answer to this.
I talked to a lot of people and some german retailers awhile ago
when I bought my professional 2k and 5k and I was assured they were resin bond.
Since resin is a polymer you are right.
Naniwa SS are resin bond as well, but there are so many types of resin and mixtures that still they aren´t compareable.

my 12k sucks up water but once it has sucked up water i find water lays on hone a lot better just sray hone untill it holding on surface. Have you noticed how nice and smooth the 5k is i find my razors glide esily on 5k compared to 8k /12k?

I got the 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k and 12K Nani's. The 1,3 and 5k seem to perform as expected. The 8 and 12k, however, I have just about quit using. They both seem to produce these black dots on the surface and the blade skips over them. They are kind of sticky. I have to re-lap constantly to remove them, and have just given up. Yes the 12k sucks up a ton of water and never stops.

Ray

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Originally Posted by rayman

I got the 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k and 12K Nani's from SRD. The 1,3 and 5k seem to perform as expected. The 8 and 12k, however, I have just about quit using. They both seem to produce these black dots on the surface and the blade skips over them. They are kind of sticky. I have to re-lap constantly to remove them, and have just given up. Yes the 12k sucks up a ton of water and never stops.

Ray

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My 8k works just spiffy and no black dots. I haven't used the 12k yet but I will give it a go. You ought to PM Lynn and Utopian and see if they are having similar results with their Naniwas.

Thanks Jimmy, I did PM Lynn about this. I hope he has some suggestions for me.

Ray

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Originally Posted by rayman

I got the 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k and 12K Nani's from SRD. The 1,3 and 5k seem to perform as expected. The 8 and 12k, however, I have just about quit using. They both seem to produce these black dots on the surface and the blade skips over them. They are kind of sticky. I have to re-lap constantly to remove them, and have just given up. Yes the 12k sucks up a ton of water and never stops.

Ray

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My 12K Naniwa requires little water (I guess I got a "good one"). I'm curious as to what is causing the differences. This is obviously not the fault of SRD, but maybe there are some quality control issues over at Naniwa?

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

My 12K Naniwa requires little water (I guess I got a "good one"). I'm curious as to what is causing the differences. This is obviously not the fault of SRD, but maybe there are some quality control issues over at Naniwa?

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OMG. Please don't think that I am trying to blame someone on this issue. If that seems to be implied I apologize to them and everyone else. I have sent a pm to Lynn to see if he has any suggestions. As to the water issue, yes my 12k uses a ton of water. It sometimes seems like the magician who pours more and more water out of a smaller and smaller glass. I just don't know where it is all going. I am going to try it again this evening and see what happens after I lap it again.

Ray

I wasn't implying that you were implying that SRD is at fault.

In saying something about the instances where the Naniwas are drinking a lot of water, I wanted to clarify that, if anything, it is the manufacturer's "fault", not the retailer's.

I'm just wondering why there should be at least 2 reported posts where the Naniwas have been so thirsty (in different grits). If more reports come out, this can indicate a faulty product or lack of consistency due to quality control issues over at Naniwa. With all due respect, I would be knocking on some doors right about now.
:)