Sharpening Systems = More Stones Better Results???

Here is a thought that has been forming for awhile now, in fact since I bought the whole Naniwa system this past summer...

That made my third "system"

I have the Nortons, and the Shaptons too..

Now when I bought these things I knew I would end up with the whole thing (OCD ya know)
I knew the 5k Naniwa and the 10k Naniwa were over kill and I really didn't need them, but hey my brain needed to have them there...

I have since added the 6k Shapton also

So on the Nanaiwas I have the 400-1k-3k-5k-8k-10k-12k
in the Shapton system I have the 500-1k-2k-4k-6k-8k-16k-30k
the Norton has just the 1k-4k-8k

So now after a 5 months and hundreds of razors here is what I am finding...

First let me say this isn't necessary by any means, you can do just fine with a bevel setter and a polisher and a ton of time and work...

But I am equating what I am finding basically to sanding grits the more grits you use the easier the work, and smoother the end product...

It seems that the edges I am getting are actually smoother, maybe because of less strokes and more stones :shrug: I am not sure but it really seems to be working that way...;) At this stage of the game I am all about smoothness, in my eyes anyone can get sharp, but to get both takes talent...Whoops just to clarify for the "Too Sharp" crowd I mean "wicked sharp" & smooth, not sorta sharp and smooth, anyone can do that too...:D
The one draw back of course is the cost, more stones = more money, BUT that might not be true in the long run..I am thinking that there is also less wear on each stone so maybe the stones will last longer... (not really a issue unless you are a Honemiester)

I am by no means saying go buy more stones, you all know me well enough that I would never say that, but if you have the full sets, give this a try, don't skip the in betweens, and see if you find the same results...:hmmm:

I think that when the geometry is good, no frowns, no uneven bevels etc. more stones do not hurt.
When you have to do some rolling X and such to account for geometry then the more stones the bigger chance to make a mistake.
May be with experience it does not matter at the end?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I think that when the geometry is good, no frowns, no uneven bevels etc. more stones do not hurt.
When you have to do some rolling X and such to account for geometry then the more stones the bigger chance to make a mistake.
May be with experience it does not matter at the end?

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Good point, that did not occur to me at all....:hmmm:
I haven't been adding any to the total number of strokes though.... I have just been spreading them out over more stones... so in my mind the risk would still be the same...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Good point, that did not occur to me at all....:hmmm:
I haven't been adding any to the total number of strokes though.... I have just been spreading them out over more stones... so in my mind the risk would still be the same...

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This is very reasonable explanation.
Another question, in your opinion is it possible just one out of line stroke on finer grits ruin the whole honing job at previous grits?
I am sure one mistake @ low grits ruins the edge but somehow can't accept that and off stroke @ say 8k + will do any significant damage?

Me being a guy who contracted the HAD right off the git go, I've got a mess of natural stones as well as the Nortons, Shapton professionals, Spydercos and Naniwas. For a long while I took a shotgun approach.

I pretty much stayed with keeping Shaptons with Shaptons , Nortons with Nortons but I jumped around from one system to the other so often that I wasn't really getting to know any of them well.

Talking about learning the nuances of the particular series of hones. For the past few months .... or however long it has been since I got the Naniwa Superstones I have disciplined myself to stay with them. I've gotten to know what to expect with them and feel that I can put them on the shelf and get to know one of the other sets now.

All of the above are good but IME whatever you get, the best thing to do is to work with them until you know them really well for best results.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

This is very reasonable explanation.
Another question, in your opinion is it possible just one out of line stroke on finer grits ruin the whole honing job at previous grits?
I am sure one mistake @ low grits ruins the edge but somehow can't accept that and off stroke @ say 8k + will do any significant damage?

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I would tend to agree with your statement "within reason" of course.. But yes the higher the grit the less change that occurs with each stroke...
The biggest honing "mistake" to watch for is coming off the edge of the stone at an angle and sliding the bevel on the stone edge, that will wreck what you have accomplished to that point...

Which brand do you find gives you the best results?

Are you finishing on a different brand following honing on the nortons?

It really depends on the razor to which system I use...
Don't get the wrong idea here, any of these systems will work, on any razor really...

But I tend to go to the Nortons for older heavy Sheffields...
The Naniwas for German and American full hollows..
The Shaptons for just about anything..

As too a finisher after the Nortons, it is usually an extra fine Coticule I have, if anything...The Norton 8k is quite capable of producing a very fine edge all on it's own...

I've benn honing not for long time, but recently and suprisingly found that I get better results skiping 10k-so 5k, 8k, really couple of strokes on 12k and stropping is giving much better results

I have recently switched to adding all of the Shaptons because I was seeing flaws from earlier stones that were not getting fixed to my satisfaction, and if I did use the "skipped" stone to fix them, I risked breaking down the edge by doing too many strokes, and/or by adding pressure. That is of course, my problem, and my solution of adding all the stones seems to be working until my technique really gets there.

By going 1k,2k,3k,4kJP,6kJP,8kJP I also realized that the 4KJP is really a polishing stone, as far as the feel goes compared to the 3K. I was surprised at this difference, so I am of the mind that by the 3K level, the bevel must be set, and at 4K+, it starts polishing. Since I tend to do too many strokes in general, I have been using the 2K, 3K, and 4K to really get a "clean" edge, and then limiting my strokes on the 6k and 8k +.

I do feel like 10-20 strokes on each can't be doing anything, but at the same time, under the scope, it reveals a much different story. It's almost as if the 4K is the truly defined edge, and the rest of the stones are spent reducing he peaks made up to that point.

Edit: I also think that by seeing the results of each small step nder the scope has helped to reveal the things I do correctly (and incorrectly...), as well as getting me very intimately associated with each stone's role in the sharpening process.

I like your thinking Glenn. I have exactly the same set of Shaptons you have and I think I could get by with half as many stones and come up with the same end product by going with with say 2K, 6K, 16K and 30K and I think I could eliminate the 16K in that group. The problem is I would spend more time on each of those stones. I use them all in progression and know at the end I will have the blade where I want it.

bj

BJ:

Exactly,,, you have the same thoughts as I had... Yes I know I can get there..
I mean seriously if you wanted to you could set the bevel on a 2k Shapton and go right to the 8k or 16k and work the smooth... or any such jump like the 1k Norton to the 8k Norton....We know that can be done.
But the smooth factor seems to me to be better like you and Tom are finding by spreading that work out over more stones...


:OT
Tom:
Just for info, I very, very rarely go over 20 laps on any Shapton stone once I set the bevel, if I do, it is usually the 2k if I feel a grab I might use a couple of extra laps to smooth it out..
As a side note I am working a pretty successful combo on the 30k, Many thanks to Lynn and especially Don from SRD for putting me on the right track with this stone... Don showed me his use of it at the last NC meet up which is a 5 lap back-hone. Right now I am getting good results from a 3-2-1 combo on the stone 3 honing laps, 2 back-hone laps, one honing lap...

Is there a difference between them at Naniwa 1-3-5, Shapton 1-2-4(6), and Norton 1-4-8? That's where the stones are most comparable imo - all ceramic synthetic waterstones with similar abrasive size, but different binders.

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Originally Posted by hardheart

Is there a difference between them at Naniwa 1-3-5, Shapton 1-2-4(6), and Norton 1-4-8? That's where the stones are most comparable imo - all ceramic synthetic waterstones with similar abrasive size, but different binders.

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I don't know if there is a difference scientifically but to me it sure feels like there is. All three will deliver the goods but I happen to like the feel and performance of the Naniwa superstones best. I'm using Shapton pros, not glass though.

Maybe Tom can give us the actual scientific differences here...

But to my hands they feel like three distinct stones as different as any naturals are...

The 8k is what I always try and compare, as that seems to be the "shave ready" standard...

The Norton feels like an actual stone to me, very similar to a fine Coticule

The Naniwa feels more like a Japanese stone, a softer feel to it, almost like you sprinkled powder on the stone...

The Shapton GS feels hard like a Arkansas but smoother they feel man-made is what I am trying to say here......

That is the best I can do for descriptions on the internet...

BTW all 3 of these are more than capable of giving a very good shave at the 8k level anything higher is just for fun...

Some interesting thoughts here. I think that whatever works for you consistently and on a repeatable basis, is the best progression. The main thing to learn in honing whether using an X pattern stroke, circles or even a rolling X or 45 degree X is learn these strokes first and well. It is the basis of everything you do and so long as it is comfortable and repeatable for you, the progressions should fall into place. Just like having the bevel set correctly as the cornerstone of honing, you actually build to the next progression you choose to go to. It is rare, particularly with the stones being discussed that I use more than 10 strokes before moving to the next progression other than in setting the bevel or when doing circles at the 4K and all of these stones work well. Add in the options of Naturals to finish and the pastes for glide and you have a lot of ways to get home.

Lynn

More stones = faster results
Smoother final stone = better results

Starting with a bar of steel and creating an edge on a ultra-fine finishing stone over the course of years of honing = best result.


I think there's a lot of misunderstanding over what stone changes do. Perhaps it's best to imagine each side of the razor as a separate mountain range that must be leveled for a road to be built (the road being the razor's edge).

Obviously your road will be created with the least lost earth (metal) and the smoothest if stone is removed by hand using the finest tools possible. But this takes a great deal of time. You can also use power tools, you can also use large scale machinery, you can also use dynamite.

Each step UP that scale is related to a step down in hone grit.

If you start with dynamite, yes you're removing a LOT of mountain fast, but you're also putting dynamite sized holes in the mountain, and many of these holes will reach below the ideal surface of the road, requiring MORE mountain be removed to level your road. So you take out a big chunk of the mountain, but leave a surface that is jagged the entire length with imperfections up to the size of the dynamite blast radius. So you bring in the big ol' caterpillers and start pounding and scooping, leaving you with a surface with + or - imperfections (the whole length) up to the size of your scoops. So you bring in the guys with pickaxes and shovels, leaving a surface with imperfections the size of those tools. Finally, assuming you're a perfectionist, you bring in guys with teaspoons and toothbrushes.

The progression I use is 1k to 4k to 8k to 16k (All Shapton CG) then onto a denim flatbed hone with 0.5m diamond spray. This works very well for me.

Granted, this is my first honing set up but I like the symmetry of doubling the grit each time. The only one thats missing is the 2k!

I'd be interested in trying other grits in the middle to see if this improves the whole honing experience.

Now the question is; Where to add the stones?

Is it better to have more at the bottom end, adding say the 2k and the 6k, or at the top by adding the 30k? Or both?

Glen, whats the honing progression you are using on the 30K? If I'm reading it right, you're doing 3 laps, 2 back hone laps and then one lap? Do you do this progression once only or do you repeat it? Could you use this on the 16k as well?

Is the 30k really worth the money do you think? Just curious, because I'm tempted to add to my Shapton set up what with Christmas nearing and all...! :-)

Thanks all, great post!

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I would tend to agree with your statement "within reason" of course.. But yes the higher the grit the less change that occurs with each stroke...
The biggest honing "mistake" to watch for is coming off the edge of the stone at an angle and sliding the bevel on the stone edge, that will wreck what you have accomplished to that point...

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Thanks for the comment about watching the blade coming off the stone. I think I've done this a number of times, without realizing what was happening. As soon as I read this I had an 'aha' moment.:o

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Originally Posted by Stubear

The progression I use is 1k to 4k to 8k to 16k (All Shapton CG) then onto a denim flatbed hone with 0.5m diamond spray. This works very well for me.

Granted, this is my first honing set up but I like the symmetry of doubling the grit each time. The only one thats missing is the 2k!

I'd be interested in trying other grits in the middle to see if this improves the whole honing experience.

Now the question is; Where to add the stones?

Is it better to have more at the bottom end, adding say the 2k and the 6k, or at the top by adding the 30k? Or both?

Glen, whats the honing progression you are using on the 30K? If I'm reading it right, you're doing 3 laps, 2 back hone laps and then one lap? Do you do this progression once only or do you repeat it? Could you use this on the 16k as well?

Is the 30k really worth the money do you think? Just curious, because I'm tempted to add to my Shapton set up what with Christmas nearing and all...! :-)

Thanks all, great post!

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Harrelson Stanley, the USA importer of Shapton stones, says that doubling in grit is what he prefers for sharpening plane irons and chisels. The glass stones are laid out that way but the Professionals (what I have) are not exactly like that. Close enough though .... same with the Naniwa layout.

I happen to like following the 1k with the 2k very much. With the Naniwas it is the 1 to the 3k and I like that even better. I do think that doing more work on the bottom end will give better .... or at least faster results on the top end.

I have the 30k professional stone but I haven't used it a whole lot. I got a great deal on a NOS stone from a member who knew a vendor in Japan who was closing his store. I've used it a little but not enough to really have an opinion. Up until now I've been happy with the results I get going up to the 15k Shapton pro or the 12k Naniwa. I also like to finish on an Escher or coticule on some of my blades. Nice to have choices.

I don't sell my 30k because eventually I'll start to mess with it more and I may decide I like it. It is kind of like living 8 miles from the ocean. I never go there but I know it is there if I ever want to. :)

I hope what I'm about to say will make sense here, but what i find with the old Sheffield's is that bevel setting takes much longer, and I spend the majority of my time in the 1k-5k area making sure I can shave hair with it before moving to polishing.

I use strictly the Naniwa's in this capacity, but I find as I get closer to getting what I want I have to bring the edge back down to the 1k in this range to get it just right, then I'll do lighter more polishing strokes on the 5k, but this can be counterproductive too much 5k doesnt produce good results.

Then I move onto the 8k, and polish to get that shave ready edge there. However, this doesnt give me the smoothness I like, so I move onto 1u, then .5u and finally .3u diamond film to smooth out the edge even further.

I have been contemplating lately getting a good coticule to polish the edge after the 8k and skip the fims, but I'm worried about edge quality and consistency that I get with the films.

I think more options always helps.

The german and american full hollows are easiest to hone imho, they take an edge very fast, all the american ones I have hold their edge extremly well, I find the german ones to loose and edge more quickly.

The longest holding edges I have and smoothest shavers are def the Sheffields, they really hold up to my tough beard.

ok thanks for listening to me
David

between my 2 nortons and 2 japanese stones, there is nothing I haven't been able to hone so far. Of course I haven't honed as many as you guys.

As soon as the bevel is set, I don't think more stones hurt. I think more stones -> less laps per hone + more gradual path to the end result.

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Originally Posted by Stubear

The progression I use is 1k to 4k to 8k to 16k (All Shapton CG) then onto a denim flatbed hone with 0.5m diamond spray. This works very well for me.

Granted, this is my first honing set up but I like the symmetry of doubling the grit each time. The only one thats missing is the 2k!

I'd be interested in trying other grits in the middle to see if this improves the whole honing experience.

Now the question is; Where to add the stones?

Is it better to have more at the bottom end, adding say the 2k and the 6k, or at the top by adding the 30k? Or both?

Glen, whats the honing progression you are using on the 30K? If I'm reading it right, you're doing 3 laps, 2 back hone laps and then one lap? Do you do this progression once only or do you repeat it? Could you use this on the 16k as well?

Is the 30k really worth the money do you think? Just curious, because I'm tempted to add to my Shapton set up what with Christmas nearing and all...! :-)

Thanks all, great post!

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Oh boy some tough questions in this one...

Shapton wise 1-4-8-16 works fantastic...
For the price the 2k is worth the step to add...
The 30k is the enigma, this stone is $300.... That is a pretty nice razor..

Here is the thing if you are a person that would spend the $700 for a Japanese finisher or the $400-$500 for an Escher (unless your lucky) then yes I would go for it... It is a toy though, you do not need these ultra finishers to shave, heck you don't need anything over an 8k to shave really... I keep saying that in here for the newer people to honing, and razors, some of us have gone a little overboard with this stuff, hence why I put this is the advanced section...

But yes Stu if you have the itch, then the 30k is a fantastic stone and actually a pretty good bargain comparatively speaking...
I am using only 6 laps total on it BTW as of right now that 3-2-1 is getting very consistant results...

Thanks Glen, Jimmy! Great thread and a very interesting read!

I think I'll add the 2k and the 30k to my set up then, plus a couple more pastes (CroX and 0.25 diamond spray) and I think I'll be totally set then..!

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Originally Posted by Stubear

and I think I'll be totally set then..!

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Hahahahahahahhaha yeah famous last words there :D

What do you think Jimmy??? I think Stu is hooked ;)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hahahahahahahhaha yeah famous last words there :D

What do you think Jimmy??? I think Stu is hooked ;)

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:rofl2:

Hooked? Me? :hmmm:

Definately famous last words..! :D

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hahahahahahahhaha yeah famous last words there :D

What do you think Jimmy??? I think Stu is hooked ;)

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You know what I think Glen, you can't have too many hones. :D More arrows in the quiver ..... OTOH, it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian. :eek:

I would definitely add a stone between 1 & 4K if it is graded by the Japanese system. If you grade the Nortons by JIS, the progression is more like 800-2800-4000. It seems 3-5 micron particle size is where most people find comfortable shaves beginning. High density Arkansas, Coticule, 8K Norton, I've shaved off 4K King, and others have with 5K Naniwa.

New set of what.........

:angel:

Lynn

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hahahahahahahhaha yeah famous last words there :D

What do you think Jimmy??? I think Stu is hooked ;)

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Haha yeah, the same way I was set with my 16 shapton, before I went on to buy one of those multo $$$ Japanese finishers...

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Haha yeah, the same way I was set with my 16 shapton, before I went on to buy one of those multo $$$ Japanese finishers...

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Isnt that how it always goes? For me it went Chinese 12k, then Shapton 16K, then Nakayama Kiita, then TM Paddle Strop w/ pastes.

Now I just gotta sweet what I like best. :)

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Originally Posted by JonnyO

Isnt that how it always goes? For me it went Chinese 12k, then Shapton 16K, then Nakayama Kiita, then TM Paddle Strop w/ pastes.

Now I just gotta sweet what I like best. :)

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I guess 90% of the time those are the steps.
12k Chinese, 16 Shapton, Nakayama (cheap and not very good polisher) , a nice Suita (to arrive next week) rated in the 35-38k range for final polish.

Hi,
May I refer to this thread in Advanced Honing Topics a while ago:
Chinese 12K/Naniwa 12000/SPYDERCO UF
Meanwhile since I'm still using this progression I constantly get the finest shaves. With stroping these blades will get only better.
I think that the fine progression of honing grits is the way it should be done to obtain the famous BBS shave:)