Bismark and micro chipping

Hey guys.

I've been trying some new things on my poor Bismark - I recently acquired the Shapton Glass 10K and I'm loving it. I'm skipping the 16K right now. I had a conversation with Harrelson Stanley and when I asked him about the chipping the 16K caused, he said the binding was a little harder for that particular stone, which could cause micro chipping. The conversation was brought on because of a video discussing the same chipping of razors caused by the 16K.

So I went Glass 4K, 8K 10K. Everything looked really good under the scope (and felt great on my face) and then tried one more piece of tape to get the micro bevel at 30K. with just 5 strokes, there was a nasty edge that was full of micro chips.

So I took off the extra tape and reset the bevel with the same 4K, 8K, 10K, and then made 3 strokes on the 30K. It looked like if I had gone one more stroke, it would've started to break up the edge. After some good stropping, the edge is straight and intact, but I don't know how it will hold up under a shave.

This was my first experience with the 30K doing this. Now I know my poor Bismark should probably be retired, but I'm wondering if I was simply on the verge of over honing, or is there something to the metal that just doesn't like to be honed past a certain point?

Thanks!

Are you sure that it's microchipping and not the raggedness of a burr? If you lightly run it across a toothpick or wine cork does it change or stay the same?

I find it hard to believe that a razor not otherwise prone to microchipping can be affected the way you have described by the 30k. Remember the 30k is only doing a minimal amount of work micro or otherwise. I would bet that you are spending too much time on the 8k level and definitely not anything you are doing with the 30k.
On the other hand, if you are running into a bad patch of metal as you advance toward the Bismark's spine that could explain that it is the razor. Some razors that are prone to chipping, bad metal, tempering etc. I have found that if you use a natural like the Nakayma, that silky surface eliminates the problem of microchipping to a measurable extent on such razors and then finish it off with the 30k. These are just my experiences, based on hundreds of honings not thousands.

mparker - this was clearly micro chipping, not a burr. Even after stropping, there were literally gaps all along the edge. I didn't think the 30K, especially with the extra layer of tape, could or would do that. This was a first for me.

Kingfish - I spent more time on the 4K than the 8K. I did about 30-40 to reset the bevel on the 4K, then did no more than 20 on the 8K and 10K. At the 10K, the edge looked great. With 3 on the 30K, it still held up, but any more, and I'm sure it would've started to chip.

I wouldn't be surprised if I've worked this blade past the temper line (if there is one). I didn't feel anything different when sharpening, but the degredation of the edge in this manner suggests that it is the steel which is in question.

Come to think of it - the shave I had prior to this was excellent at first, but by the ATG shave, the edge was raw and I did not get anything near BBS. That's why I set out to remedy the blade. This was also the first time this razor quit like that.

Perhaps I have finally dealt it the death blow...

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I wouldn't be surprised if I've worked this blade past the temper line (if there is one). I didn't feel anything different when sharpening, but the degredation of the edge in this manner suggests that it is the steel which is in question.

Come to think of it - the shave I had prior to this was excellent at first, but by the ATG shave, the edge was raw and I did not get anything near BBS. That's why I set out to remedy the blade. This was also the first time this razor quit like that.

Perhaps I have finally dealt it the death blow...

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My condolences to your "poor Bismark". I always wondered if it was possible to wear out a good razor in one generation, you did it in a year or two. In reality, it has been a good teacher and maybe your learning curve benfited by only varying the method not the tool. I am almost embarassed to tell you how may old razors I have collected over a couple of years. Almost all of them shared the pain of my learning curve by numerous and countless honing sessions.
Well it's all "swarf down the drain" as they say> it gave you it's best when you were at your worst, and now that you are at your best it has nothing left.. I am tearing up, I have to stop now. RIP Bismark.:(
Mike

Mike,

I've had this Bismark for over 5 years - it was my first straight razor. I shamefully admit that in that time, I treated it like sharpening a knife, my stropping was about 10 tons of weight with all kinds of pastes, and I even took it to the belt sander a few times to thin out the spine thinking that a more acute angle was the remedy.... :(

Since finding the SRP, I was able to get some very nice shaves off of it, but it was still my main learning blade. I had left it alone for the past few months and decided it was time to really do it up proper. So I put 3 layers of tape (to make up for the spine loss on the sander a few years ago...) and here we are.

I will give it another shave test at the end of this week to see if it still quits half way through. But yes, I think you have hit it on the head - now that I feel like I have a handle on my razor sharpening, my razors have lost their handle!
:(

:)

I just shaved with my Bismark after redoing it. It looks like just another case of over honing.....:gaah:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I just shaved with my Bismark after redoing it. It looks like just another case of over honing.....:gaah:

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Glad to hear it. It's happened to me before, which is why I suggested the possibility of a burr. Stropping on plain leather isn't necessarily enough to remove a burr, not even stropping on linen will necessarily remove it - the burr can be flexible enough to simply bend back and forth without breaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Hey guys.

I've been trying some new things on my poor Bismark - I recently acquired the Shapton Glass 10K and I'm loving it. I'm skipping the 16K right now. I had a conversation with Harrelson Stanley and when I asked him about the chipping the 16K caused, he said the binding was a little harder for that particular stone, which could cause micro chipping. The conversation was brought on because of a video discussing the same chipping of razors caused by the 16K.

So I went Glass 4K, 8K 10K. Everything looked really good under the scope (and felt great on my face) and then tried one more piece of tape to get the micro bevel at 30K. with just 5 strokes, there was a nasty edge that was full of micro chips.

So I took off the extra tape and reset the bevel with the same 4K, 8K, 10K, and then made 3 strokes on the 30K. It looked like if I had gone one more stroke, it would've started to break up the edge. After some good stropping, the edge is straight and intact, but I don't know how it will hold up under a shave.

This was my first experience with the 30K doing this. Now I know my poor Bismark should probably be retired, but I'm wondering if I was simply on the verge of over honing, or is there something to the metal that just doesn't like to be honed past a certain point?

Thanks!

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I decided to put a nice polished edge on one of my knives using my spyderco ceramics one day. The knife was made of 52100 ball bearing steel with a Rc of 62, after progressing through my medium and fine stones I started to finish with my lapped UF ceramic. Every thing was looking good except the last inch or so near the tip where there was a really rough burr or so I thought. When I took a closer look this is what I saw

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...013/PIC034.jpg

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...013/PIC031.jpg

I also had this problem with ZDP-189 Rc 64+ a few times, after some thinking I contributed it to the high Rc of the steels, high density of the ceramics and too much pressure even though I was using just the weight of the blade.

Though you may have been using very light pressure your troubles may have started when you added the microbevel. Less contact area of the bevel to the stone would have created higher forces on the very fine edge. If you use Diamond or synthetic waterstones and don't see these effects you will know your answer.

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Originally Posted by knifenut1013

Though you may have been using very light pressure your troubles may have started when you added the microbevel. Less contact area of the bevel to the stone would have created higher forces on the very fine edge.

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+1

I'm not a fan of microbevels myself. I tried this three years ago when I first got my Shapton 15k Pro hone, and discovered that microbevels didn't give me anything that a pasted hanging strop wouldn't do better and with less stress on the edge.

I recently started using the angle measurement calculator to end up somewhere between 18 and 20 degrees, which has usually meant 1-2 layers of tape to get the angle high enough.

When approached from this direction, the edge doesn't seem to break down like when it does without the tape.

I haven't yet tried adding a micro bevel after using the calculator and tape, though....:)

Thanks for posting this, Tom. I'm also glad to hear that it was a burr problem rather than flawed steel.

I find it interesting and I would say even amusing that as a group we tend to be very critical, particular and exacting about our razors and their fit and finish; yet, as a group, we seem to view true micro-chipping as a quirky varietal that simply requires more attention, coddling, multiple techniques, etc.

I may have strong opinions on this subject, but I will always consider,regardless of the make, a micro-chip prone razor to be defective, period. A micro-chipping edge is not endearing, it's not simply different or simply more challenging, it's a defective edge pure and simple IMO. I'm horrible at archiving old razor texts that I stumble upon, but apparently those who were knowledgeable and wrote about razors back in their "hey day" shared the same opinion.


Apologies, Tom, for going off on a bit of a tangent.
Chris L

Microbevels can cause chipping due to the tiny surface area handling a large amount of force. You would have to use less pressure than the weight of the razor itself.

That said, your razor is defective as microchipping is a sign of brittleness. You might be able to send it back to Dovo, or re-temper it yourself 375F for 3 hours in a calibrated oven.

ChrisL - I like your point of view on this! For me, it has been a matter of over honing and/or pressure 99% of the time. My Bismark has been through the ringer over the years, so the actual bevel angle was too shallow, causing the edge to break down. I don't view that as a flawed razor because I'm the one who made it that way! :fim: BTW, I haven't checked the angle on the Bismark yet with the calculator, but 2-3 pieces of tape made the edge "work" again.

At the same time, the idea of checking for imperfections with a 100x microscope is also partly the problem, as we want to see perfection and any inconsistency at 100x looks like the grand canyon. Micro chipping is to be expected as the quality of the steel is revealed at such refinement and edge thinness. I think hones have something to contribute to the chipping, as well.

codt - I think brittleness can be a cause of some micro chipping if the accompanying edge angles are too low, as is most likely the case in my razor's situation (at least I think that today! :)) Brittleness comes with hardness, and I don't think my Bismark is too hard at all.

The effects of the combination of over honing, micro chipping, brittleness and edge angles opens new paths to take!

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

At the same time, the idea of checking for imperfections with a 100x microscope is also partly the problem, as we want to see perfection and any inconsistency at 100x looks like the grand canyon.

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Hi Tom, I checked a razor with my 30x B&L stereoscope and it looked good. I sent the razor to a friend who, upon receiving it, emailed and said he had checked it with 100x and there were micro chips. I told him that if he gave up the 100x and just settled on 30x his honing would improve dramatically and so would mine. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Thanks for posting this, Tom. I'm also glad to hear that it was a burr problem rather than flawed steel.

I find it interesting and I would say even amusing that as a group we tend to be very critical, particular and exacting about our razors and their fit and finish; yet, as a group, we seem to view true micro-chipping as a quirky varietal that simply requires more attention, coddling, multiple techniques, etc.

I may have strong opinions on this subject, but I will always consider,regardless of the make, a micro-chip prone razor to be defective, period. A micro-chipping edge is not endearing, it's not simply different or simply more challenging, it's a defective edge pure and simple IMO. I'm horrible at archiving old razor texts that I stumble upon, but apparently those who were knowledgeable and wrote about razors back in their "hey day" shared the same opinion.


Apologies, Tom, for going off on a bit of a tangent.
Chris L

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I learned so much from yours and other tangents at SRP.
Although you are probably more right than wrong and have found some historical info to back up your opinions on microchipping, Some harder steels do this more on some hones than others. As I have mentioned in other posts, Jnats seem to make many honing problems go away including chippy types from MHO. This of course will not cure defects like inconsistant distribution of grain and other tempering defects. Personaly when I get blades like that if they are heavy enough they will turn into a small carving or marking knife or even a small mortice chisel as these tools are not as exacting as a razor. Really. no tool is except maybe a microtome but then again they are just razors set up for a different purpose. I wonder if there are any microtome forums. Could you imagine that group?:)

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Hi Tom, I checked a razor with my 30x B&L stereoscope and it looked good. I sent the razor to a friend who, upon receiving it, emailed and said he had checked it with 100x and there were micro chips. I told him that if he gave up the 100x and just settled on 30x his honing would improve dramatically and so would mine. :)

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Jimmy - I see where you're coming from but....:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

Hi jendeindustries, I have several Henckels Friodurs, some of which are as low as 13° degrees inclusive and if I abuse the edge it rolls not chip. My carbon steel razors are as hard as 65 rc (TI), and it also rolls not chip. If your razor is chipping then that is very bad. It could be the hardness but it could also be not properly tempered (a bad batch). You may not have noticed it before when the edge was thicker, but now that it is thin the problem is revealed. You should consider replacing the razor.

That Spyderco ultra fine will over hone a knife before you know it, even using light pressure.
Now when I use it to put a finial polish on a knife blade I only give it 4 or 5 light passes.

I did try a micro bevel on one of my razors and it did ok but I only gave it a few passes with 3 pieces of tape after setting it up on one piece.


Silver2