I have a Nakayama that is a most incredible stone in that it can start out with a slurry and in short order take mid level honing duty in short order take the blade to shavable good edge. It can easily come off a 4000 grit or lower stone and we are not talking about a long time. (And no this was not a cheap Ebay stone) Still I find the need to refine more and I still get more comfort only after 30 Shapton. I know most of you Jnat guys never seem to long for finer stone after, and I wonder is it me and lack of honing skills or do I need a finer stone.