Honing a micro bevel without tape.

I propose that it is possible to put a micro bevel on an edge without tape and the procedure would go something like this.

I have an Asagi that I have been using and I have always been one to use a magnifier to look at my edges. It may be that this is common knowledge with a lot of you but I have not read anything about it. Recently I have been experimenting with the following;

I am using a heavy slurry on my stone using a certain amount of pressure on the edge....let us call it X. (I have actually used X pressure all the way up the progression). I then go to water with just a little slurry and I lighten up on the pressure so that the edge just barely comes in contact with the stone. When I look at the edge using a 30X scope I see that about the last 25% of the bevel is polished to a higher level than further up the bevel.

If my conclusions are correct when I was using the higher pressure X I was deforming the blade every so slightly and establishing a bevel that was at a slightly flatter angle than when I went to my final polishing using pressure that was a fraction of X, thus the little band along the edge that was different than the rest of the bevel. I have seen this when I was doing micro bevels using a 30K and films.

Am I all wet? I have been getting edges that rival any I have ever used before, even 0.1 micron films.


Just a thought,
Richard

Using pressure and then honing without pressure will create a double bevel. It's because the pressure makes the blade flex, which changes the honing angle to make it less than normal. Then when you release the pressure, the honing angle returns to normal, and that creates the second bevel.

I guess using pressure would be like negative tape, and no pressure is like no tape. It is the same effect as if you started without tape and then added it.

This is just as you described it.

Creating a double bevel helps you overcome any issues you may have had with a non-perfect bevel in the first place, because the second bevel is just on the very edge of the razor. In creating that second bevel, you remove any inconsistencies from the primary bevel. But if you set your primary bevel properly and do everything from thereon up properly, the end result will be the same with a single or double bevel.

I don't buy it. Altering the pressure is only going to alter the contact if you are causing a flexing of the blade with the higher pressure, which will cause the very edge to lift off of the hone.

if you have quality blade you don't need to have double bevel etc.
it is all illusion that double bevel is sharper etc.
double bevel or taping of the spine in last stage of honing will help you only if your blades quality is low and adding 1 layer gives a little more support to the edge which doesn't brake down.
hope this helps.
gl

I agree that the edge deforms while honing with slight pressure, on the more hollow grinds. While the fuller wedges, IMO, will deform very little; if at all. You can lean the side of a singing hollow's edge into your fingernail and see the deformation easily, with light pressure.

Arguably that could work with a hollow ground as they do flex (although you will add more wear than necessary to the blade by using the extra pressure), but I agree with Sticky about the more wedge like razors; Due to the stiffer blades that wont work so well.

The one thing that occurs to me much more often than a double bevel when using pressure is that the very edge crumbles down.
So even if it is possible to "flex" the bevel with pressure I wouldn´t do it
because of the damage done to the edge using pressure


btw. I often get a double-bevelish look (that is a bevel that is hazy on the back and more polished towards the edge)
when I use my nakayama with slurry and diluting or finishing on water (patiently, as it takes a lot of time).
I don´t think this has much to do with pressure but with the slow Nakayama trying to polish away the hazy look,
but is unable to get past thefirst third of the bevel.

This honing technique was used and advocated by Bill Ellis, about 4 years ago I think. He removed the post and the accompanying graphics though.

Although he used this method in practice, his theory was that the mid-bevel needed to be thinned tighter than the bevel edge.

I have used varying pressure in honing but I don't know for sure what it does.

If I was going to go for a double bevel I would use tape. Tim Zowada had, and maybe still has, his method on his website. This involved beginning with one layer and continuing with that until the end when you go to 3 layers to do the double bevel. It is worth noting that Tim posted that he was giving up the double bevel. He said he was going to update the site to reflect that but I haven't checked nor has he posted on it since then AFAIK.

The problem I would expect with doing a double bevel using alternate pressure rather than tape would be inconsistency. Maintaining consistent pressure throughout the stroke would be very difficult IMO. The difference in stiffness of individual blades would come into play as well. OTOH, I don't care for double bevels so it isn't an issue for me.

Richard;

The J-nat slurry particles keep getting finer and finer when you use it. The same thing happens with the Escher. I understand the blade deflection theory, but we would have seen that present itself at lower grits. My 2cents.

Mike

The theory is sound, however, it fails to take into account a very important fact.

The flex of the hollow grinds will be more severe in the thinnest sections (i.e the center) as opposed to the ends where there is more support from surrounding thicker steel.

Its on a micro level, but it will cause more wear, and eventually, I imagine, a bellying of the blade. Of course this may take years to accomplish,

I like to keep them the way the old timer who made it intended it. :)

Thanks guys. The difference in pressure is very minute. I know that you guys would know such things. To hear that Ellis dabbled in it makes me think I am not completly off the wall. I am always screwing with stuff to see how things work.


Thank again
Richard

The last time I talked to Bill about honing, he was using tape to create double bevels, but he didn't discuss anything similar to the OP.

Moving to finer and finer stones, the bevel end sits closer to the surface. The particles are smaller and the end gets refined.
I would think that this effect would happen to some degree without the blade deflection idea you put forth, maybe you exaggerated it with blade flexing. I would not call it a micro bevel, but one that is slightly convexed from uneven pressure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you have quality blade you don't need to have double bevel etc.
it is all illusion that double bevel is sharper etc.
double bevel or taping of the spine in last stage of honing will help you only if your blades quality is low and adding 1 layer gives a little more support to the edge which doesn't brake down.
hope this helps.
gl

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From my experience I have found something similar where the edge makes you think it's sharper because the angle changes for the shave and the shaving sounds different but really isn't that much off?

If you had a BBW I would go to that next and then finish on coticule water.

I'm not a fan of double bevels and the only place I use them are with my two Zowada's. They came with double bevels and the first time I needed to hone them I removed the Double bevel in favor of a single however I found the edge simply did not hold up with a single bevel. After about 10 shaves the blade would increasingly microchip just from use. I went back to the double and the edge holds up much better.

The fact that your trying and observing the differences is good.
The prior posts have really answered this well. The major objection I have is that a double bevel is not necessary for most razors and your method lacks consistent control over the pressure and the consequent angle on the bevel. Consistency of angle is the key for straight razors.

Just my $.02,:)