Spill the beans, Jimmy!

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12-23-2010, 12:59 AM
pinklather

Spill the beans, Jimmy!

Okay. You held out long enough. 'No sense pouring salt on everyone's tongue - no one's having any of that.

So how'd you get your Nak? Where are the pics? What are you trying first - what were the results? You gonna try in combination w/ your escher(s)?

No sense playing coy - out with it!

I was dumber than a bag of rocks with it - you saw my heartburn on the thread. I'm loving the edges, but don't have the more broad experience w/ other rocks to compare it to. 'Wanna hear how a more widely experienced person does this.
12-23-2010, 02:11 AM
JimmyHAD

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinklather

So how'd you get your Nak? Where are the pics? What are you trying first - what were the results? You gonna try in combination w/ your escher(s)?

I got it through a friend who bought it from So Yamash!ta a couple of years ago. He is very busy the past year with work and familial obligations so decided to offer it to me.

The photos are his. It is 6" long and 3 3/4 at the widest point tapering to 2 3/4 towards the end and 5/8" thick. It seems to be very hard and relatively slow but fine. So hard that I found it difficult to generate slurry with the credit card sized 325 DMT but I got enough to work with it a bit.

I did X strokes with three razors that were already shaving well and it did improve the edges. Just preliminary fooling with it. I intend to use my GDLP for the slurry creation next time I mess with it. That will be soon and I will let you know what I come up with. Same as everyone else I guess. Put some water on a hone and do x strokes, TPT, and so on until you think it is "there" and shave test. :) No magic, just practice and more practice.
12-23-2010, 02:51 AM
Bill S

I have the sister stone to yours. It was selected by So at the same time and both stones were sent out for evaluation. Your seller kept that one and I got the other. I was told that they are very similar in characteristics and results. I really like mine and have gotten very good results from it.

As a finish stone or for a refresh the stone is awesome.
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/u...Picture013.jpg
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/u...Picture014.jpg
12-23-2010, 03:10 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It seems to be very hard and relatively slow but fine. So hard that I found it difficult to generate slurry with the credit card sized 325 DMT but I got enough to work with it a bit.

You know they're hard when they challenge a diamond plate :)
12-23-2010, 04:16 AM
DwarvenChef

Stone envy rears it's ugly head...
12-23-2010, 05:13 AM
pinklather

Oh, well done!!

Big 'Grats, Jimmy. Very nice!

Fast or slow, I've never heard a single instance of a bad rock coming from Yamashita-san. That's where I got mine. 'Costly, but you don't have to buy and sell several costly toys (with the learning curve for each) to find a good rock.

My asagi also tests out as very slow cutting, confirmed by Yamashita-san. It seems impossible for it to deliver an edge that's anything but smooth. I put a few things together this eve, and tried it out on the 1/4 grind spanish point wacker you have. At the finishing stage, the harder steel seems to need twice as much work/strokes as the more normal soligen hollow. 'Was told to give 20 strokes on the asagi, look for the gray metal swarf. If no swarf, it was slow, and might take 100 strokes. So, if the wacker usually takes twice as many as the normal (my experience so far), I gave it the equivalent of 200 strokes in a combination of mostly circles, and some x-strokes. I followed by heavy stropping - 100 canvas, 200 latigo. Yes, for other rocks and other blades, this would be nasty over-kill. As is, it's the best edge I've ever gotten, and this eve, gave the best shave I've ever gotten. So close you keep touching your face, wondering if all the skin is really there.

You've been at this many times more than I've been around, so I'm very interested in your thoughts as you get familiar w/ this rock - especially hearing that it is also slow. I hope you enjoy it way beyond anything tasteful, prudent or civilized. Pls. let us know your thoughts and experiences with it.

Thank You very much for posting and especially the pics.
12-23-2010, 07:29 AM
Utopian

I'm not sure it's a risk, but given what the DGLP costs, I am wary of using mine for anything but waterstones. In fact, I don't use mine for anything but waterstones. I'd rather sacrifice a relatively cheap DMT plate instead. Are you sure you want to use it for a natural?

...Just a thought.

Oh, and welcome to the dark side!
12-23-2010, 11:21 AM
mainaman

Jimmy congratz on the stone, that Asagi looks very smooth and compact.
For a full J-nat experience try naguras.
This guy sells them very cheap if you want to try.
12-23-2010, 12:08 PM
MODINE

Congratulations Jimmy, she's a beaut. Thanks for posting a pic. Have fun experimenting.
Mike:)
12-23-2010, 01:55 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm not sure it's a risk, but given what the DGLP costs, I am wary of using mine for anything but waterstones. In fact, I don't use mine for anything but waterstones. I'd rather sacrifice a relatively cheap DMT plate instead. Are you sure you want to use it for a natural? .

I've been using mine for coticules, Tams, Eschers and a Thuringan or two along the way with no ill effect. Also with the Norton, Shapton Pro and Naniwa. Funny thing, I checked the Asagi with a Starrett straight edge when I got it and it is not flat. Has a sort of gradual doming. I decided to leave it and work around it rather than flatten it. I will however try the plate to generate slurry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainaman

Jimmy congratz on the stone, that Asagi looks very smooth and compact.
For a full J-nat experience try naguras.
This guy sells them very cheap if you want to try.

Thanks Stefan, reading So's stuff on his website I have the impression that he thinks it is advantageous to use the diamond plate for generating the slurry. For now I'm going to keep it simple and stick with that. I've noted various posts describing the naguras but I've never really studied the differences or which nagura might be suited to which hone. Something to look forward to in the future.
12-23-2010, 02:38 PM
mainaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks Stefan, reading So's stuff on his website I have the impression that he thinks it is advantageous to use the diamond plate for generating the slurry. For now I'm going to keep it simple and stick with that. I've noted various posts describing the naguras but I've never really studied the differences or which nagura might be suited to which hone. Something to look forward to in the future.

Jimmy,
I have experimented a lot with diamond plate and nagura and they are not mutually exclusive when we are talking about very hard and fine stones.
The naguras pretty much are used as a progression after bevel set to bring the edge to the last polishing step done on the polishing stone.

I was pretty skeptical of naguras initially but ever since I tried them I find them very very useful.
12-23-2010, 02:45 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainaman

Jimmy,
I have experimented a lot with diamond plate and nagura and they are not mutually exclusive when we are talking about very hard and fine stones.
The naguras pretty much are used as a progression after bevel set to bring the edge to the last polishing step done on the polishing stone.

I was pretty skeptical of naguras initially but ever since I tried them I find them very very useful.

Thanks Stefan. I expect that I will eventually dip my foot in that water. For now I'm taking baby steps with this J-nat stuff. If the economy ever bounces back in my lifetime and 'happy days are here again' I may broaden my horizons in the seemingly endless well of Japanese stones. :) For now I have to make do with what I've got.
12-26-2010, 06:00 AM
wsfarrell

JUST MY OPINION

If you're using slurry, I think it should always be a powdered version of the exact stone you're using, which means the nagura stone is either

1. a piece broken off from your larger stone, or
2. diamond

There are dozens of different kinds of stones out there being sold as slurry or nagura stones. Unless you've been polishing Japanese swords for 20 years, I don't see how you could intelligently pick one to use with your particular finisher, much less a progression.

JUST MY OPINION
12-26-2010, 10:07 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks Stefan. I expect that I will eventually dip my foot in that water. For now I'm taking baby steps with this J-nat stuff. If the economy ever bounces back in my lifetime and 'happy days are here again' I may broaden my horizons in the seemingly endless well of Japanese stones. :) For now I have to make do with what I've got.

Jimmy, if you hone with a progression of synthetics up to 8 k or even a bit higher, one good J-nat polisher is all you need... or maybe 2... or 3 :)
12-26-2010, 02:54 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

JUST MY OPINION

If you're using slurry, I think it should always be a powdered version of the exact stone you're using, which means the nagura stone is either

1. a piece broken off from your larger stone, or
2. diamond

There are dozens of different kinds of stones out there being sold as slurry or nagura stones. Unless you've been polishing Japanese swords for 20 years, I don't see how you could intelligently pick one to use with your particular finisher, much less a progression.

Not just your opinion. :) I don't know if that is correct or not but I have read that So Yamashita (Japan Tool) prefers the diamond plate to create the slurry to avoid grit contamination. So says,

"Secret MUST item for using hard natural stones. Nagura stones cannot be used for harder natural stones, nor on various Suita stones.

The polishing parcticles of Nagura is larger than the particles of super fine finishing stones, and when the stone is hard, the Nagura's particle will scratch the bevel before they are ground to smaller size. Using diamond stone to create the initial slurry, you are getting the slurry that is made of the finishing stone itself. You'd be surprised how much better result you get by this technique.

Also, when you use a Nagura on Suita stones, the coarse Nagura particles will get stuck in the Su (the holes in Suita stones) and will keep scratching the bevel, because these particles won't get ground to smaller sizes."

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Jimmy, if you hone with a progression of synthetics up to 8 k or even a bit higher, one good J-nat polisher is all you need... or maybe 2... or 3 :)

Thanks Oz, that is exactly my routine. Right on about maybe 2 or 3 more .... or even more than that. :p
12-26-2010, 10:15 PM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks Oz, that is exactly my routine. Right on about maybe 2 or 3 more .... or even more than that. :p

I understand Jimmy. Each razor can be different so you need different stones :roflmao
12-26-2010, 11:01 PM
lz6

Nice Jimmy. I hope you have a great time with that beauty! Kindly keep us posted and add to my learning curve. :)
12-28-2010, 04:39 PM
alx

Jimmy
Looks like you got a winner there, you sure deliberated long enough and I admire your focus.

Using a diamond plate (diamond nagura-DN or hon-nagura-HN) to raise a slurry is the fool proof method. A nagura stone is the more traditional approach in Japan although that is changing slowly. Using a DN will wear off grit faster and in my opinion this is the only drawback. Alx
01-04-2011, 01:35 AM
Disburden

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

You know they're hard when they challenge a diamond plate :)

Fwiw, I have a Nakayama kiita that chewed up my credit card dmt 325 and wouldn't make slurry no matter how much I tried with it, just ended up with swarf on the stone.
01-04-2011, 04:29 AM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disburden

Fwiw, I have a Nakayama kiita that chewed up my credit card dmt 325 and wouldn't make slurry no matter how much I tried with it, just ended up with swarf on the stone.

I guess that's possible but how many strokes were you doing to slurry up ? I only ever use about 5-10 light strokes to create an almost invisible slurry with my Atoma 1200 for finishing.
01-04-2011, 09:16 PM
PA23-250

Quote:

Originally Posted by alx

Using a diamond plate (diamond nagura-DN or hon-nagura-HN) to raise a slurry is the fool proof method. A nagura stone is the more traditional approach in Japan although that is changing slowly. Using a DN will wear off grit faster and in my opinion this is the only drawback. Alx

For traditional finishing, it would be a tomonagura--a piece of the same stone used as a slurry stone. True nagura are much coarser than the actual stone & are used for preparing the edge for the final tomonagura slurry, which can be raised w/ a diamond plate if you don't have a matching slurry stone. For finishing, you use slurry from the main stone or water or some combination of both, depending on the stone. FWIW, I use a little folding DMT-C minisharp on mine--same size as a slurry stone even. :)
01-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Disburden

Quote:

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I guess that's possible but how many strokes were you doing to slurry up ? I only ever use about 5-10 light strokes to create an almost invisible slurry with my Atoma 1200 for finishing.

About 10-20 back and forth strokes with a credit card size dmt 325 grit.
01-05-2011, 11:09 PM
onimaru55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disburden

About 10-20 back and forth strokes with a credit card size dmt 325 grit.

Well, diamonds don't wear but they do fracture. If the stone is that hard it could well break em off the plate. Spyderco UF's are like that. Break in a DMT in seconds :)