How Long from Dull to Sharp?

I'm hoping some of you guys with more experience honing can give me some input on this.

I recently obtained a couple of old, but clean razors, that were quite dull on which to practice my honing technique. Both razor were German steel. My thought was that I could master the technique without screwing up a good razor in the process. I watched Lynn's video twice, got out my Norton 4k/8k and started with pyramids.

I managed to make some improvement to the blades, but not near enough to successfully shave. My question is, how much work does it take to bring a totally dull blade to a shave-ready blade?

I'm assuming the problem lies in my technique. It would seem that 8 or 9 of the pyramids that Lynn described on his video for blades needing a lot of work would do the trick (starting with 15 passes on each side, then 10, etc.). We're not talking stainless steel or a blade with a nick in it.

Nothing would make me happier than to learn that a really dull blade could require even more passes on the stone, but I'm skeptical about that. Meanwhile, I'll continue trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Ok then -

a really dull blade could require even more passes on the stone :D

Seriously. Some very dull blades require 4x as much work. Sometimes you may need to go down to 1K or 1200 and after this still do say 100 laps on Norton 4K. Really depends on the razor. (disclaimer - my Norton may be slower cutting than others')

Check the edge under magnification. Do the permanent marker trick - to see where metal is removed (search archives - but basically, just mark the bevel and edge and do 1-2 laps on 4K to see if the marker line is removed uniformly, are you getting to the edge at all or just the bevel, etc.)

Cheers
Ivo

Did you lap your norton before you started? I spent weeks farting around like this with my first razor getting nowhere - then I lapped my stone and got shaving sharp my next attempt.

I'm with Ivo in that the 4K cuts very slowly for me. Some guys seem to be able to get it to work more quickly, but I've spend hours on it without making much progress.

Do a search on "thumbnail test," which will help you figure out where you are in the honing progression. If the razor is still really dull, you might try getting some 1K wet-dry sandpaper. There's a lot of info on using sandpaper in the honing forum as well.

It took me weeks to get my first razor shave-ready, but now I can do it in less than 30 minutes. I never thought it would happen. :)

Hang in there,
Josh

There are some guys who have been straight shaving all their lives and never really learned how to hone properly. I think even Lynn will tell you he is still learning when it comes to honing.

There are no formula's its a matter of your own technique and the tools you have at your disposal. If you took ten identical razors with identical problems and gave them to ten people each would have a different story as far as how long it took to hone and how they did it. You just have to keep at it until you get the job done and experiment with different routines and media and techniques.

Thanx for the tips. I'll go to a coarser grit and see what happens.

As Michael suggested - whatever you do - lap / check the stone! No ands, ifs, or butts - if it ain't flat you ain't goin' nowhere

Cheers
Ivo

You will need to establish some technique before we can talk about a realistic time frame at all. Even then each honer has his own pace. That said;

A workman is only as good as his tools. For totally dull, you'll want more than just the Norton 4/8k combo. That'll take forever, or at least days maybe. Moving up in grits is a great way to cut your time and if your technique is perfect and you've got a collection of stones at your disposal which are high quality and fast cutters .... an hour? I'm never so lucky though.

X

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Originally Posted by xman

Moving up in grits is a great way to cut your time and if your technique is perfect and you've got a collection of stones at your disposal which are high quality and fast cutters .... an hour? I'm never so lucky though.
X

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Come on, guys! This is the newbies corner. I'm a newbie, and I don't have a collection of stones. I'm starting to straight shave for a few months now. I only have an Arkansas stone. Do newbies in general have a "collection of stones" ranging from 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit ? That's way too expensive and complex for a newb.

Just my thoughts...

Time to sharp is influenced by the following factors:
- experience
- tools

One of my first honing projects was a problem razor I got from thebigspendur.
I had a yellow coticule at my disposal, and a very cheap no-name course (320 grit?) stone that I had lying around.

With these 2 it took me 19 full hours to get that razor shaveready (also because I was inexperienced then).

The problem with razors is that you need a fine stone (like 8K) to get an edge that you can comfortably shave with, and something coarser to remove metal to shape the edge (4K or 1K).

I don't have an arkansas stone so I am not qualified to comment on that.

This sucks from a newbie perspective because it requires an initial investment.
Personally I think the norton 4/8 is one of the best things to buy if you are getting started because it allows you to start with a dull blade and end with a sharp blade that you can shave with.

By now I have a collection of stones, allowing me to pick the right stone for the right phase, and I can get even a very dull blade shaveready in less than an hour.
If the blade is in good condition and only needs minor sharpening, I can get it ready in under 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Leon

Come on, guys! This is the newbies corner. I'm a newbie, and I don't have a collection of stones. I'm starting to straight shave for a few months now. I only have an Arkansas stone. Do newbies in general have a "collection of stones" ranging from 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit ? That's way too expensive and complex for a newb.

Just my thoughts...

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Leon,

Actually, just wet/dry sandpaper 1000 + Norton Combo will be adequate, and not that expensive.

Cheers
Ivo

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Originally Posted by Bruno

... I can get even a very dull blade shaveready in less than an hour.
If the blade is in good condition and only needs minor sharpening, I can get it ready in under 20 minutes.

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Really?

I mean, depending on condition I can get a razor ready with 20 passes on the Y/G Escher and 10 passes on Chromium. But getting a really dull blade shave ready in less than an hour - I can't do this. Some blades I have worked on require 30 min on 1000 to begin with (hone out chips from a wedge, for example, etc.) Then it's 4K time, and this might take a while too. And fine-tuning - it can be a long process because I need to test shave, then work more, then test again, etc.

Cheers
Ivo

As long as the shape of the bevels is still OK, 20 minutes (honing, testing and finishing) is feasible. I haven't touched up any of my razors yet (I always seem to testshave someone else's razors :) ), but touching up probably doesn't even need 20 minutes.

But a dull blade is usually doable in an hour. When I have a really dull blade, I tape the spine, and grind it back and forth on the 1K Norton with my fingers pressing down hard on the blade itself. 10 passes on one side, 10 passes on the other.
Even taking out small nicks goes fairly rapidly like this.

I replace the tape as soon as it wears out to prevent spine damage.

As soon as the bevels look OK I remove the tape and do 20 - 50 lighter X passes to remove the roughness and to correct the angle of the bevel. Not so much because of the tape, but because the pressure bends the blade a bit near the edge if the razor is not wedgy.

From there on standard pyramiding on the 4/8, and a couple of laps to finish it off.

Granted, if the blade is a tricky one to hone (britle steel for example) then it will take longer.
And of course if the blade is warped then the back and forth grinding is out of the window because you'd destroy the blade structure.
And there are probably lots of other scenarios where an hour is not possible.

But given a razor that has no other problems than being very dull / having chips I can get it to shave in roughly an hour.

EDIT: I think it is important to add that the HHT actually works for me (with my wife's hair) so if the hair slices cleanly off the 8K I know I only have to finish. I usually only testshave only as confirmation that the razor is ready. That is why I did not take add shaving time to my estimate of 1 hour.

I also have the 'advantage' that like Josh, my chin hairs are tough, so if a razor shaves me, it is fairly safe to assume it will shave someone else.

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Originally Posted by Leon

Do newbies in general have a "collection of stones" ranging from 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit ? That's way too expensive and complex for a newb.

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Most guys probably start with the Norton 4k/8k combination hone. This stone will suffice for all of your honing duties, but most guys wind up adding a pasted paddle or a higher-grit finishing stone like the coticule or escher or one of the Shaptons. The big hone collections come into play when you get sucked into ebay, where "interesting" hones and "interesting" razors frolic seductively. If all you want to do is get great shaves every day with one or two razors, then the norton or a barber hone is all you really need, maybe with a chrome oxide paddle for that little extra snap.

My mainstay hones are my shaptons. While I own a substantial chunk of their range only a couple of them get regular use; the rest are just there for dealing with ebay razors.

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Originally Posted by Leon

Do newbies in general have a "collection of stones" ranging from 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit ? That's way too expensive and complex for a newb.

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The best money you can spend on this is a pasted paddle strop by Tony Miller. I use mine regularly (every couple of weeks) and it is much easier than having finishing stones. Just my humble opinion.

As one newby honer to another the best advice I have had so far is to leave the pyramids if the blade is really dull and stay on the 4 k in sets of 20 until you feel the edge building. I know this sounds weird but you do feel a difference - more drag - and a different noise.

I can never pass a HHT but test the blade on my arm hair and when they start to ping I go on to the pyramids either agressive if they aren't quite pinging or the conservative if it's cutting nicely then strop and test!

Don't get me wrong I am not in the same county as these guys let alone the same street but I got so demoralised at first as I was pyramiding away and nothing happened. Using the above built the edge and your confidence and technique grows once you realise you can actually get a decent edge.

Good luck, keep at it!

I second Si's suggestion. Pyramids are good for polishing an edge once it's established. If you don't have the edge established, though, the strokes on the 8K are slowing you down without accomplishing much.

Good luck,
Josh

You might try a new method to check the results of honing as you proceed. I used the microscope for a while but now use intense light. The system is: Strong light source; eyeglasses (strong readers); optivisor (the strongest). You can see the reflection off the edge in the verticle and both sides in the horizontal. With the 4K the reflection will still be there but very small in width. The 8K will almost remove the reflection. The finish hones: coticule/15K Shapton will remove the reflection. The trick is to not overhone.

Monte

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Originally Posted by monte6177

You might try a new method to check the results of honing as you proceed. I used the microscope for a while but now use intense light. The system is: Strong light source; eyeglasses (strong readers); optivisor (the strongest). You can see the reflection off the edge in the verticle and both sides in the horizontal. With the 4K the reflection will still be there but very small in width. The 8K will almost remove the reflection. The finish hones: coticule/15K Shapton will remove the reflection. The trick is to not overhone.

Monte

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I understand how looking at the edge saves the prep and all for a test shave, but do you feel you can determine when the razor is ready with your method without test-shaving? Especially off the finishing hones - I don't really care what it looks like, I just want to feel a good edge (but I do not use your method so I have no idea how well it works)

Cheers
Ivo