... but the FAQ soon cut me down to size.
Great site. Nice to meet you folk.
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... but the FAQ soon cut me down to size.
Great site. Nice to meet you folk.
Well. the idea is that honing with spine on the stone wears spine and edge at the same rate hence maintaining angle. then people tape the spine so it won't wear and ...
There's a lovely maths based thread on it. Ah well.
But to refine that argument further ... The spine and the edge will not only wear at different rates (due to force being spread over a larger area at the spine: assuming a hollow ground razor, very small area at the edge. Pressure is force divided by area. speed of metal erosion is proportional to pressure not force) but also wear in different planes. The wear at the edge is into the face (the width of the blade) at a rate proportional to, but not equal to, the wear on the thickness of the blade, whereas the wear on the spine is only to the thickness of the blade ... so original geometry can never be maintained, tape or no tape.
(The maths in the thread, however, has convinced me that this is like arguing about the difference between a duck. So please don't see this as an invite to re-re-re-[etc]open the debate)
(unless you want to. it is temporarily and locally a free world, so do as you will :) )
:shrug: I Was Gonna Add To This Realization But I Reckon I Might Just Wait Till Mornin Maybe A Scientist Will Chime In !!! But Ya We Americans Love Are Tape Always Lookin For New Ways Too Use It!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty
Another consideration is the spine may be softer than the edge, but it doesn't matter anyway. The amount of wear over a limetime is still negligible
Best not to over think things. Use it or don't das macht nichts.
Bob
And, razors unlike knives do not need to be honed as much, that a lot of material will be removed, from the spine or the edge.
Ideally, a razor need only be bevel set honed once in its lifetime, then maintained on a strop and occasionally a fine finish stone. The vast majority of my rotation, will never be bevel set again, as long as I own them.
There are many 100 year plus old razors with little if any spine wear, that shaved regularly.
The practice of bevel setting, hone razors, is a relatively new compulsion, of probably 15-20 years.
Thanks to all for that input. To give context, I have never yet touched a straight. So this is curiosity rather than a 'use it or don't' question. As a professional sharpener I will be asked to hone ... And I want to be sure I know what and why I do (or don't do) anything.
At this point it looks like there's a LOT of practice and learning between now and the first time I feel competent to touch anyone else's razor. And it seems like it's going to be an interesting trip with fine company ...
Yes, it will be a interesting trip for sure, at least it was for me. You might want to give this thread a read http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html .
Alternately, enter "tape spine" in the search box top right of the home page. The amount of time and effort spent on this one subject alone is nothing short of incredible.
Bob
thanks for the link. I'm already convinced it's something I don't need to prioritize in my learning cycle ;)
I need to start more at the "which end should I point at my face?" level and work my way up.
edit - having read the link (great link, hit the nail directly on the head), it just reinforces my op ... not an original question. One day I'll have one. A man can dream ...
To me using a single layer of tape is like giving a dead person a drink of water, it can't hurt. OTH this is what can happen to a beginner by not using tape http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-not-hone.html . It is an extreme example but can be done with a heavy hand, a hone, no tape and poor understanding of honing.
Bob
didn't check the link ... but I'm guessing: fine stone, too much pressure on the spine, bevel faces never meet? Lift the back and give yourself an edge? (pun intended, I'ma bad bad man)
edit - because busy. will check it later.
busy. also insatiably curious and easily distracted. dammit
Another complication that throws the force calculations entirely out of whack is the simple fact that a beginner lacks the proper knowledge and/or skill to apply the force properly, with the result often being that excessive and/or uneven pressure is applied on the spine with excessive and/or uneven wear occurring on that spine.
I'm a firm believer that wear at the spine is far more important than wear at the bevel, that is, the geometry is changed far more by spine wear. My reasoning is simple - the spine to blade width ratio is about 3.5 to 1 - if you remove a miniscule amount of metal from the spine, the impact is multiplied by the same ratio of 3.5 at the bevel. Add the fact that the spine is at almost 90 degrees to the hone and will, therefore, wear at a faster rate than the bevel (about 9 degrees to the hone) and it soon becomes obvious why bevels begin to get wider, and consequently harder to meet.
I Just New Somebody Else Was A Gonna Be Chimin In Here.... I Was Tryin To Say Real Nicely Ya Do It Your Way ( Dont Bother With The Link BoBH Took The Time To Send Ya ) Be A Mighty Nice Lookin double Edge Knife!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty
You,ll Be Fine Just Use 2" Duct Tape!!!!!!!!!!Ty
That raised a quiet chuckle. To be honest, I don't have much choice other than to do it my way ... but if i'm walking up a mountain, I'll ask the folk coming down if there's any snakes on the path. I've met some of the nicest people that way ...
I followed the link. I really would never have guessed at someone trying to hone through the shoulder. On a 1k stone. I mean - at one level you just have to admire the dedication, commitment and determination. That must of taken hours of hard graft.
Then you weep for the future of humanity. We are all capable of this level of stupid, it's healthy to keep that in mind.
added - the video by gssixgun in mid thread is worth its weight in gold. Glad I'm seeing this before , rather than after ...
Wandering off on a tangent ... and thanks for your patience if you're still here ... Is there any value in practicing some of the methods and techniques with non-razor specific stones (fairly low grit, used for general sharpening) a a razor shaped lump of metal? I could make one of those fairly easily and get a feel for how the spine and the edge wear. Looking at the resources here it looks to be a very very light touch process, even at its most aggressive.
Your opinion - would that just make it more likely to learn bad habits?
I'm expecting the answer "the only thing like a razor is a razor" and I'm not looking for shortcuts, it's just that it fills me with horror to think about killing the product of a craftsman's work even if it's a used, cheap razor. I'm slightly animist in outlook at tend to think 'things' have souls too, when they are loved enough. Plus on the up side - I could play with some metal and stones :)
:gl::shrug::shrug::shrug:: Well I Just Dont Know Utopian Tried To Help BoBh Tried To Help- So I Really Believe Its Just Time To Ask Bruno!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I,m Out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty brunoisrighte:brunoisright
May I Ask What Is A """"Razor Shaped Lump Of Metal"""""" & How Do You Make It & After Your Done Making It Just What Are You Planning On Doing With It?????????????????????????????:gaah:
I really don't think it would. You wouldn't be able to check the sharpness after practicing on it & it'd be impossible to mimic the geometry without a proper grind. I don't think it would help at all besides maybe helping you learn even heel-toe pressure. Like you said I'd be afraid of inadvertently developing or at least laying the foundation for a bad habit.
You may ask. I would take a blank of fairly low carbon steel cut it into the outline of a blade, probably french style. I would flat grind a blade area leaving a spine (based on a common spine to blade width ratio). I would hollow grind the blade with two hollow grinds along its length to give an appropriate edge angle of say 14° and dummy up a grip from a piece of wood. pin the two bits together. So it would look like (have dimensions similar to) a razor but be a lot lot softer metal. The idea being that a soft metal on a coarse stone would mimic a high carbon steel on a fine stone. It would never hold an edge a such and you wouldn't want to shave a tennis ball with it, let alone your face. But it would let me assess how to put pressure on a blade and the resulting grind patterns, see how spine and edge wear in relation to one another and my movements. That sort of thing. After I've used it ... dunno. Turn it into a whittling knife and carve dragons with it. That's what I usually do with scraps of metal when I'm bored.
I know it's a crazy scheme but I've got the bits and that way I only destroy my own work
The mockup you described could possibly work for basic technique, but I think the better approach is to start on a proper razor. Put some electrical tape on the spine to help prevent unnecessary or uneven wear & take your time till it goes your way. Tape or no tape later on is your choice, as far as the razor is concerned it won't get enough wear from normal using & touch up honing over your lifetime to detrimentally affect the bevel angle.
Yep All Sounds Like All Good !!!! I Was Just Wondering Back In The 60,s Were You At Woodstock?????????????But I Had A Similiar Theory I Went To Florida On Spring Break Walked Up And Down The Beach And Asked EveryBody Passin By If They Wanted To Go ICE FISHING??????Just Kidden????????????Ty
Lol, drink much tonight?
Addison. I'm grateful for your input, have I made clear what I do for a living?
Ken. In the long run (I'm starting to think in years now) it will be my customer's choice and razor, rather than mine. Personally, I'd choose based on whether there was artwork on the spine to protect but it seems like a side issue compared to the difficulty of learning correct honing technique.
No I Just Couldnt Help Myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then I Seen You Chime In Thought All Good Now ,,,Your Better At Explaining Things Than I Am !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ty
I feel that tape, when learning to hone, is just good sense. For kicks 'n chronology, I put all the spent tape from honing sessions (mostly from a single razor) on the lid for the Tupperware that I keep my honing kit in. After work tonight, I'll snap a pic of it. It's a nice example of spine wear PREVENTED.
It is also an interesting case study of how the geometry of the blade will affect hone wear. That is, compensating for a razor that isn't laser-straight will cause the spine to have uneven wear, just trying to ensure the bevels meet. I like that I can see, looking at the tape, where I needed more pressure on the blade for a good edge. Thinking about it... I should start a nerdy journal, with tape from a given razor each getting its own page. Imagery sometimes explains things better to my brain than words can :shrug:.
Yes. It's funny but I has assumed the edge would wear faster that the spine. Now I've seen more razors and more videos, I can see why the thing you'd be worrying about is the spine. For certain, there'll be tape on the spine when I first get to the stage of honing. But in the long run (outside of special circumstances) it feels like it would be a prop allowing one to get away with poor technique. My plan is to not have poor technique. I'm anticipating more that a little tears, wailing and the rending of hair :)
I'd be interested to see your photos and/or nerdy journal
Yea, it is the hardest thing for Knife Guys to accept, including some umptieth generation blade smiths, that razors are different from knives in many ways. You are not the first.
Sounds like you are accepting that, so you will be fine. Many a knife guy has tried to make and hone razors and given up.
You will learn a lot by studying vintage razors. I know a couple guys that started, by doing just that, reproducing vintage designs. It is amazing and a bit of a mystery how much the old guys knew.
The best way to learn to hone is with a local mentor.
Have taught a few and there is always a point where the light bulb comes on, and they get it. Seems to be different for everyone. And everyone says it’s the little things, that you never get in a video or forum post.
Enjoy the journey, wishing you success, really there are not enough good razor makers left.
Thanks for the good wishes. Like I said, interesting journey and pleasant company - can't ask for more than that
It's good that you have come to recognize that there is more to this than "sharp is sharp." We have heard that many times over the years here from knife guys who say that phrase while also saying that razor honing will be easy for them. They almost always come to recognize that they were wrong.
It looks like you are off to a great start and I look forward to your participation here.
Well, playing the violin doesn't make you a concert pianist ... I think it's the same sort of thing. Hopefully there's some advantage but I shan't be counting on it.
(Merry Christmas, all)
I think that is an excellent analogy. You'll do just fine here!
Sorry about the delay. I finally got those pictures of the spent tape. It starts at the top, with the oldest, and the most recently discarded are at the bottom. Also, I'm fairly certain that they are all oriented with the end (of the tape) that was at the heel/stabilizer, is the side of the tape that is now on the right side. At least most of them, anyway...
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For the rest of the pics, I took two of each close-up. One without flash, and one with flash. Because physics be a fickle mistress! (Light reflection was used to capture the tape wear.)
Oldest.
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Newest.
Most, but not all of those are from the same razor.
Some might ask: "Why did you need to go through so much tape for the same razor??"
Answer: The only razor hone I have is a Shapton M5 12k ceramic. So anything more than "a quick refresh" will take both time & effort. You must also remember that the tape wears much more quickly than the steel.