Another "Not quite sharp enough" post

I have been watching all the videos on You Tube and Lynn is a great teacher and there are others that have other ideas about honing and they all seem to know their craft. I am using Norton hones and I have the 250/1000 and a 4000/8000 and from what I hear that will get you shaving. I have made several attempts to sharpen 2 razors; one is a newer Dovo and the other is a nice 1906 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett. I have used the pyramid method as well as Lynn's circle technique and they both yield similar results where they will pop a couple hairs on the HHT but the shave is not comfortable and not even good. One improvement I had was lightening up my blade pressure to a weight-of-the-blade only pressure. It feels like the blade is just floating across the hone when the pressure is light and flat. In each case I set the bevel with the 1000 so it would "drag" across my thumb nail. From there I would lighten up the pressure throughout the pyramid method. After honing I use AOS strop paste on a nylon strop for 20 licks, bare nylon strop for another 20 and the leather for 40. Could I be stropping for too short a period. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and my bleeding and irritated face thanks you in advance.:)

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Originally Posted by dpompian

I have been watching all the videos on You Tube and Lynn is a great teacher and there are others that have other ideas about honing and they all seem to know their craft. I am using Norton hones and I have the 250/1000 and a 4000/8000 and from what I hear that will get you shaving. I have made several attempts to sharpen 2 razors; one is a newer Dovo and the other is a nice 1906 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett. I have used the pyramid method as well as Lynn's circle technique and they both yield similar results where they will pop a couple hairs on the HHT but the shave is not comfortable and not even good. One improvement I had was lightening up my blade pressure to a weight-of-the-blade only pressure. It feels like the blade is just floating across the hone when the pressure is light and flat. In each case I set the bevel with the 1000 so it would "drag" across my thumb nail. From there I would lighten up the pressure throughout the pyramid method. After honing I use AOS strop paste on a nylon strop for 20 licks, bare nylon strop for another 20 and the leather for 40. Could I be stropping for too short a period. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and my bleeding and irritated face thanks you in advance.:)

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Hands on experience is the best there is and you have several members in your area who would more than likely help you one on one.

They also have had several 'Meets' (a meet is where the guys get together and show things like honing, stropping chip removal etc. It's also a great time to just shoot the crap.

Here's a link to the last meet:

https://sharprazorpalace.com/get-tog...11-2018-a.html

A well know Pro Honer has said something similar to this--

"Honing's Easy---Till It Ain't"

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Originally Posted by dpompian

I have been watching all the videos on You Tube and Lynn is a great teacher and there are others that have other ideas about honing and they all seem to know their craft. I am using Norton hones and I have the 250/1000 and a 4000/8000 and from what I hear that will get you shaving. I have made several attempts to sharpen 2 razors; one is a newer Dovo and the other is a nice 1906 Hibbard Spencer Bartlett. I have used the pyramid method as well as Lynn's circle technique and they both yield similar results where they will pop a couple hairs on the HHT but the shave is not comfortable and not even good. One improvement I had was lightening up my blade pressure to a weight-of-the-blade only pressure. It feels like the blade is just floating across the hone when the pressure is light and flat. In each case I set the bevel with the 1000 so it would "drag" across my thumb nail. From there I would lighten up the pressure throughout the pyramid method. After honing I use AOS strop paste on a nylon strop for 20 licks, bare nylon strop for another 20 and the leather for 40. Could I be stropping for too short a period. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and my bleeding and irritated face thanks you in advance.:)

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You might try to find a mentor that is close to you. A one on one session would probably solve a lot of your problems. Are these blades curved or straight? Are they hollow ground or wedges? Are you using electrical tape? If so how many layers? A 60x loupe would also help you keep track of your progress as you go from one grit to the next. I would strop 50 laps on the coarse material and 100 on the leather. Skip the strop paste for now.

Process of elimination.
First make sure you are shaving with a good lather & the razor nearly flat on your face.
Then shave minus the leather strop then the nylon then the paste etc, right down to 1k. Once you get down to a 1k shave you will see which stage your problem is.
90% of the time the problem is at bevel set.

And/or buy some magnification & learn to see what edges look like. Depends on if you are a visual or kinesthetic learner.

My success (at least %98 of the time i'm successful) came when understanding that most of the work starts at the bevel set. There are different ways of testing the readiness of the edge before moving on to the next hone. I use a combination of the thumb pad test (you'll feel a sharp sticky feeling when the thumb is lightly touched on the edge moving away at a slight angle) and the shave test. It must easily shave arm/leg hairs all along the edge before moving on to the next hone. After that there is comparably little time spent on the other hones to finish the edge.
I would try the x stroke rather than the pyramid method and see if you get different results, A lot depends on the amount of pressure you apply for any method. I spent hours honing using just light pressure with little success just because that's what i understood i should do. As was stated before finding someone to help you is the best way to learn (I was fortunate enough to have some hands on experience with Lynn the proved invaluable). JMHO Good luck on your journey.

If you are learning to shave with a straight razor and learning to hone at the same time you are up against it. It will be hard to know if it is your shaving technique, lathering/stropping technique or honing that is the real culprit. I'd say to have one of the razors honed by a person known to put a shave ready edge on a blade. That will give you a benchmark of what a good edge should do and feel like if you do not strop it before the first shave. If the shave is bad then you know your lathering/shaving technique needs work. Strop it before the second shave and if the edge is worse you have an idea that your stropping needs work.

The best way to learn honing is one on one with a mentor if at all possible. Honing is one of those things that looks easy, it is once you get on to it, but can take a while to get consistently good results from doing. It takes time and practice which can be greatly shorten by having a mentor. Almost everyone goes through that period of frustration in learning to hone.

There are a few variables when you start shaving with a straight razor and by adding honing to the equation it adds to that. It is not impossible to do but may take a bit longer. Take your time, slow and easy does it.

Bob

Hi MisterClean thanks for the response. I think a mentor is a great idea and I do see there's at least one in Denver than I will reach out to. To answer your questions they are both straight hollow ground blades and I don't use tape. I think the idea of a loupe would be a good idea for me too because I like to see what is happening as I work. I will also try your counts on the strop and skip the paste for now. I appreciate the tips.

I think a beginner honing without tape is a bad plan. In the beginning it is difficult to keep the honing concentrated on the edge, and the result is the spine wearing way faster than the edge, and it throws your geometry into the obis. Tape is your friend. When you get to a point where you can get through a honing session without wearing out the tape, that is the point in which tape is optional. In the mean time there is this thread, that shows great picture as to what the proccess looks like through a loupe.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
As already suggested, I encourage you to work with someone that knows the proccess. There are a few guys in your area. It would not hurt to have them hone one of your razors while working your way through the progression with the other. It is not rocket science, but it does take practice to get repeatable result.

Welcome to SRP from The Springs.
We will meet someday if you get to our meeting in Denver in the future. It's too bad you didn't join last month as we just had our meeting and it only happens a couple times a year. Now to the meat of your issue...

As Bob said!
Trying to learn to shave with a straight NEEDS to be done with a PRO Honed razor. Not one you are learning to hone with. Honing take a long time/many many hours of sitting in front of the stones to figure out exactly what you're doing and when to progress to the next stone. You can learn to hone and shave at the same time.
I did!
BUT, I shaved with Pro honed razors and learned to hone on other razors. I have been honing for almost two years, every weekend I have, and I'm now getting to the point where I get good results 80% of the time. At a guess, I bet I've honed 150+ razors now. Now I'm not saying that it takes this long for everyone to learn. But I would guess for most it does take many months of honing before it STARTS to come together. Then depending on how much perfection to are into it could take even longer.
A loupe is a big plus and learning to use it often. You need to see what you are doing to the edge with each stone, looking at the edge every 10 or 20 strokes, understand what you see and why it now looks that way. Then to know its time to continue on. This also takes hours of staring thru that little glass to know what you're seeing. You can find lots of pics of Edges being honed on this site that will help you to learn what you're seeing.

The one thing that will help you right now is to send out a razor or two, to someone that will hone them up right for you. Learn to shave, lather and strop. If you want to learn to hone at the same time, don't do it with a razor your learning to shave with. Good luck and I know you will get it in the end, but as the old saying goes, after 100 shaves with a straight you will be just starting to understand what it's about. And I say, After 200 shaves with a straight you will then know that at 100 shaves, you really didn't know much. Just don't give up!

do you even know how to shave with a straight and strop correctly? make lather ? all these make a difference in honing also. cause until you can you may not know when its sharp and smooth enough.. plus its always easier on videos. plus some have honed lots of razors. so one on one help is the best, but lots to learn before you can get a shaving edge. Tc

Hey Gasman thanks for the advice. My son and I race karts down near the Springs so maybe I'll look you up next time we're down there.
David

tcrideshd thanks for giving me some perspective on honing. This is a case where you should jump in with one foot!
David

Rezdog I will take your advice and use the tape. I have learned to torque the blade to get the pressure off the spine just I'm nowhere near proficient. I know I'm doing it wrong and once in a while I get a nice glide from the pass. I'm clearly at the conscious incompetence stage where I'm starting to know what I don't know about edge pressure.
David

There is so much about honing that took me a long time to pick up. Going to my first meet accelerated my honing abilities substantially. None of us started as pros, it’s all part of the learning.

TinTin
Although I hear from many that the pyramid method is a good way to go I hear from just as many people they prefer other methods like the X pattern only. It sounds like it's preference and the problem with the pyramid is that if you use combination stones you spend a LOT of time flipping them! Blistering Barnacles!

-Haddock

its not about preference either, its all about experience, no one razor is like the next. all the new and old methods really don't matter much till you know what your doing. and to quote one of the great razor guys out there "honing is easy till it aint!" that's why its so important to actually know what a shaving edge is. then try to get your edges there. the problem is so many new guys think, " I have to hone " when the truth is you put the cart before the horse. a truth be told, once your razor is honed right, the stones get put up for long periods of time. hence learn to strop. the only guys who are honing all the time are the guys who do it for a living. I,m 4 years into this and I still send my razors out, cheaper than stones still even though I bought all the stones. I maintain my razors, cause its the way to go, but you really will benefit from a meet and start right now and learn the basics,, that,ll keep you busy for the next 6 months

It can be done but is difficult to learn to shave and hone. Easier to start with a pro honed razor, learn to shave and strop. Then learn to hone on a different razor. It is easy to ruin a shaving edge with improper stropping.

You can’t learn to shave without a shave ready razor.

Post some pic of your razors, get some good magnification, there are many threads on magnification, you can buy good magnification on line from 2-15 dollars.

Look at the, (My second try at Honing) post. There are lot of great photos that document a new guy’s journey from bevel setting to shaving edge. Most important are the photos of a fully set bevel. Post 51, page 11.

As said most probably your bevel is not fully set. Make sure your stones are lapped flat and edges rounded or beveled, get some pure Chromium Oxide to strop on. A properly hone 8k edge stropped on Chrome Oxide is a nice shaving edge.

Hi David,

Just ran across this thread. PM coming.

Victor

There you go David. Vic is in your area and has helped many folks to learn to hone. Im in Denver every night for work but i dont stay in one place for more than 30 minutes filling the gas stations of Denver.

Send me a PM with your number. I can give you little warning of where i will be and i will hook you up with a honed razor. Not one for you to hone on but to help your shaving learning.

Vic will help you with the honning.

OK, well there has been a somewhat shocking development. I took the advice of MisterClean and stropped my razors as he suggested with 50 on the nylon and 100 on the leather. This morning I shaved with my old Hibbard Spencer Bartlett and it was amazing! It shaved very comfortably and I even dared to shave "upwards" on my sideburn area with a result of patches of BBS! I'm very excited and encouraged by this. Then I grabbed my new DOVO and it was even better. I'm not saying this is anything but beginner's luck so I realize I have a long way to go and a lot to learn but it's been fun shaving with a straight without feeling like I'm dragging 60 grit sandpaper across my face.

I also have had a mentor reach out to me here in Denver to give me a honing lesson so that should be fun too. Also I have had someone reach out to me from CA with some great advice and additional help with my shaving journey.

Thanks to all...

D

Yup, never underestimate what a good stropping can do. Sounds like between that and finding a mentor you should be well on your way to many enjoyable shaves in the future.

Bob

Somethin I live by..

Honing..the edge doesn't end at the hone, it stops at the strop. :chapeau

BobH I really am blown away by the strop having such an effect. ;)

Im going to be meeting up with David at a Shell station 6 minutes from his home this evening to do a drug... I mean razor pass-off. Going to put an old Ern in his hand that i touched up a week ago and shaved with once sense the touch up. Now he will know what a 20k edge will feel like.

See ya this evening David. Sounds like your off to a good start. Just dont give up when that irritation happens from your experiance being low. It happens to all of us in the beginning.

Gasman-
Looking forward to it. "being low" sir? I'll take a guess that that means the angle of the razor is off and i take too many skin cells off. :)

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Originally Posted by dpompian

Gasman-
Looking forward to it. "being low" sir? I'll take a guess that that means the angle of the razor is off and i take too many skin cells off. :)

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I think Jerry meant 'because your experience time is low'. I would suggest that you might make it a full trade with Jerry so that he could sample one of your edges too.

bluesman7
yeah I read that wrong... I'm an idiot. That's a good idea and I'll bring a blade with me when I meet him. I visited your website earlier and I must say those razors are sick.

D

Between Jerry and Vic, you are in great hands, sir. There's no better way to learn quickly while avoiding so many of the common pitfalls.

So true. Good man,Jerry. St least it's not my Genco, off the PHIG I sent ya. He'd look like someone slapped him silly....:roflmao

For those that don't know, that stone can produce an overly keen edge. ( In the proper hands ) Think of a feather blade on steroids, keen.

If it makes you feel any better; I love straights but I can't hone them either, at least not from scratch. I am pretty decent at keeping that edge once someone else put it there for me though. :)

Mike is right. He sent me that Genco and PHIG because i said thefe was no such thing as too sharp. Boy was i wrong. I still havent concored the PHIG yet.

Hi Everyone I just wanted to post an update to my honing adventure. First I want to say how amazed I was to find so many willing participants in helping new shavers with questions. I figured if I posted a question if it got read by anyone at all it would be surprising. Instead I got 9 replies within the first day with suggestions and connections with other people in my area that could help. Thanks so much for all your input it's been so very helpful. I want to single out Gasman for all the encouragement and loaning me a razor as well as giving me some samples of some soaps that are truly a step above what I'm used to. Also jfk742 for sending me a blade to use while I'm learning to hone properly. Any new members learning to hone I will pass along the advice I heard so often which is get a razor that was honed by a pro so you'll know what it's supposed to feel like!

My progress on honing has been steady and I can now get a razor to be comfortable to shave with and I have gone from a twice a week shaver to a daily shaver because it's a new and challenging experience every morning. I managed to procure a Dubl Duck from Craigslist for $15 and I had help from Victor setting the bevel. Since then I brought it home and finished it off on my Norton 4K/8K stones and now it shaves beautifully. My only problem with it is it does have some discolorization on it and I do need a suggestion on how to get that off if anyone has a successful strategy.

Anyway that's the progress report and thanks agin to EVERYBODY who passed along a tip to a newbie :)

David

Happy to hear how things turned. Thanks for posting an update.

Bob

Some Mothers polish and some 0000 steel wool for the tough stains and cleaning light pitting. I’d start with mother’s and cotton ragbacked with an eraser. Beware the edge, we’ve seen some pretty nasty cuts.

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Originally Posted by outback

Somethin I live by..

Honing..the edge doesn't end at the hone, it stops at the strop. :chapeau

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I like that! Your own words?

Congrads on the progress David. Its always good to hear from folks learning and to know they are making progress. Keep it up bro.