This post is extremely useful information and should be the answer to the question concerning shave ready razors if and when we make the FAQ or Q and A section.
This post is extremely useful information and should be the answer to the question concerning shave ready razors if and when we make the FAQ or Q and A section.
I also vote yes for the "shave ready?" answer. Seems pretty complete.
On the whole, looks good to me.
I do have some concerns about the list of people who supply shave ready razors... for example, Uthed hasn't even logged into SRP for several years, so his name should be removed. I also recommend we only have the list in one place so that it's easier to maintain. And, since the list constantly changes as people go in/out of the business of offering razors for sale, we might want to modify the original text to read something like:
Here is a list of members who are also listed in the above mentioned thread who offer new and/or used shave ready razors among other equipment. This list is by no means complete nor does it imply these sellers are preferred over other sellers. Check the Buy/Sell/Trade forums for additional vendors.
I also vote yes on azjoe's excellent addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by azjoe
I'm not sure I agree with the description of Robert's razors.
There is a lot of good info in these threads!!!!!
On the other hand there is also the possibility of creating another "Wonderedge" style price jump with this thread....
One should be very careful on the wording of the recommendations of what to buy...
There are my 2 pennies....
I have edited the original post. Red text is text that has been suggested to be put in and blue is text that has been recommended we remove.
Joe your suggestions have been seconded so I have applied them to the original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by azjoe
I havent applied this suggestion as yet Davis because you do not explain why you disagree with the description. Furthermore I think people need the opportunity to second your suggestion or disagree with it. So by all means back your suggestion up.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
I havent checked if this is a sticky yet joe but could you make it one please? I tried to msg you earlier about it but was told your inbox is full and SRP wont let you take any more messages :roflmao
Oh and one more thing- what happens when I can no longer edit my first post? :thinking:
Yes, I was waiting for a "second' in the form of a comment because I'm uncertain myself.
Given the little that I know I would prefer Robert Williams to be described as "A Master craftsman that produces custom and semi-custom straight razors"
I know I'm treading on thin ice and will probably offend someone very important but I believe that if Bill Ellis can be described as a "Master Craftsman" that Robert Williams can and should be described with the same verbage.
In my perfect world (where everyone else does all the work I should add) a thread like this would have a link to show pictured examples of the artists/vendors razors.
That way you'd have some frame of reference on what a Bill Ellis razor was like and what a Robert Williams razor was like.
To be perfectly blunt, without seeming, well self rightous, I'm almost offended by the description of Robert Williams as selling "a selection of rare and hard to find razors".
Perhaps this description is a little old?
Your point is noted Alan, many thanks for the explanation. FWIW I dont think you're offending anyone, simply stating your own opinion. I have never seen the work of either gentlemen so I cant say either way. Which leads me to my next point....Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Personally I think this is an excellent idea and that we should encourage all the vendors listed in any FAQ to offer pictures demonstrating their work.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
However, I risk leading this thread :OT. I would ask please for Alan to put his idea to the root thread where this thread came from at
http://straightrazorpalace.com/fo...ad.php?t=15913
and leave this thread focused on the topic in hand. If you feel as Alan does that both gentlemen should be described similarly and can back it up with experience please make yourselves heard.
Many thanks,
Sandy :tu
I'm going to agree with this... the description of Roberts work is dated.. he is truly a master craftsman. Yes at times he does produce beautifully restored works but from what i have seen in the last year is that he is now focused on the production of new artisan razors ... which explains his 3 month backlog of work:DQuote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Thank you Jim for your response. If you are seconding this then I shall edit the post. But I need a suggestion of what to replace Roberts entry with. So Jim and Alan get your thinking caps on.
Also to others if you disagree with this feeling in any way dont be afraid to say something. Its all up for grabs at the moment and nobodys point of view is more important than anyone elses (IMHO).
Out of interest Jim do you speak from personal experience or is this something you have heard through the forum or what? Just wondering.... :hmmm:
I don't want to throw a wrench in the works here and in general I like the thread but I have a problem with listing honers period. I think that just by listing these guys it can be implied the forum is endorsing them and when someone sends a razor to one of them and is dissatisfied with the results then what? I think the names are best left on the vendors forum. Afterall it is a business and they are charging for their services. If there were people who were willing to hone for free that might change my mind but I don't think anyone would do that on a regular basis or they would be swamped with work once it was commonly known and it wouldn't be fair to them either.
I'll second that, while it's good to have some honers listed it kind of relegates everyone else to second tier, if there is to be a honers directory I think it should be kept separate and in the vendors' forum. Unless of course the vendor has the explicit support of the forum. You could end up with people being leery of buying a shave ready razor in B/S/T.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Otherwise a separate list in the vendors' forum would be appropriate.
OK if thats the case would it be worthwhile opening up a new thread and splitting the information. We could call the new thread 'FAQ: Who do I send my razor to to make it shave ready?' or some such. The thread could contain the honemeister info listed here and a link could be made from this thread to the resulting thread. Similarly we could create a thread entitled 'FAQ: Where can I buy shaving goods?' or something similar. On each of these threads it could be stressed that these are recommendations but for a more detailed list of vendors/honers see the B/S/T forum.
Is that a reasonable idea? Anyone second this? :shrug:
I'll second that. Neat thread though.
I think at some point it would be neat to give out the advice that a new person might be open to allowing another forum member the opportunity to sharpen the razor for them. We can say something like:
"These decisions, if you receive an offer, can be made on an individual basis based on the offer received and the price negotiated. Although your edge can not be guaranteed it is often inappropriate to pay for the cost of a professionally honed blade before a member knows how to strop or shave, either of which often dulls an edge. "
"Additionally, regardless of who you choose to hone your blade the forum takes no responsibility in the quality of the edge, whether you'll be able to shave with it after it arrives, whether you'll ever see you razor again, or any responsibility for injury based on having a honed razor in your hands"
If you guys agree you can edit this anyway you'd like, just my random thoughts.
Robert has more regularly put posting pictures of his work on newly forged and created masterpieces... the one i have from him is stunning and a truly great shaver... i also have a ebony rescaled henckels he did a while back and last time i looked ot classic shaving the number of Roberts rescaled work is going down and occacionally they have one of his custom creations on sale there as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidneykidney
he had recently stated his turn around time as 10 to 12 weeks... besides his real job and life... my guess is he is busy making razors... ask him:)
to the question of listing honing services... i know people would like a list but "word of mouth" around the forum would tend to stay more updtaed as it were and having them put that they will hone in their signature so that people can contact them directly.
lists are nice but somebody has to maintain them and then maybe someday a name will be taken off the list and this leads to lots of ugly posts in the off topic area.
skip the lists!
Well of course it is... Josh posted that 9/23/06... a lot has changed since then. What would you propose to change it to? I'd suggest we normalize the descriptions... eg, everyone who makes custom razors gets the same descriptive verbiage... something like "custom razor maker"... or whatever. Honestly, it's very hard to not offend someone if we use qualitative descriptions... beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Providing a list of vendors is is one thing, but saying a vendor sells quality products will eventually become problematic when someone gets a lemon or is dissatisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
As far as pics are concerned, isn't linking to their website enough? I guess if they don't have a web site (eg, JC) then I guess you can say PM them? But lets keep in mind that the topic of this faq is along the lines of "Why a shave ready razor isn't always shave ready"... not "where can I buy a custom razor".
Should Classic Shaving simply be listed with other recommended sellers rather than featured on it's own?
I believe that Vintage Blades also stocks razors pre-honed by Lynn.
I missed this when it was first posted... I agree with it. Keeping the list seperate will make it easier to administer. But regardless of whether the list is separate or incorporated, such a list can never be administered fairly no matter how hard you try. That's why we traditionally have put the onus on the vendor to list themselves... eg, on the main site there is a links section where a vendor can list their website/services. We have a BuySellTrade forum where a vendor can list their goods and services. We have a Vendors forum where vendors can discuss their wares. We have a classifieds section where a vendor could list their goods and services. All of these would of course require that a newbie actually look in various spots on the site to find the info... hmmm... I'm not sure that's all bad, come to think of it.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nickelking
I agree with this too. Having a seperate FAQ listing 'who does what services' will be less work for me as changing the one list will be easier. It will also mean the thread does not start to answer multiple questions. A more uselful way would be to link any additional questions that might be asked from this thread. ie at the bootom of the page have a questions such as 'Who can make my razor shave ready?' etc... and have that link to the list of vendors (amongst whom will be the honemeisters). Does that make sense? Do you agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by azjoe
Furthermore on reflection I think we should consider re-vamping all the descriptions. That way an official FAQ which may come accross as more SRP endorsed (as I think one post alluded to) would be more impartial. I think any list should state simply the Users name in real life, their username on SRP, their URL, their location and exactly what they do. How well they do it is a matter of opinion and is therefore something best discussed in the forums with both vendors and other members. I would not send my razor to someone unless they had had positive feedback on the forum.
Any thoughts on this? Am I off the mark?
I'm a relative newbie, but this paragraph completely confuses me. Everything I've read here says "when you buy a razor as a newbie, get it professionally honed so you can use your new razor." I read this as saying the opposite. If razors are not typically sold shave-ready, how is the newbie to get started?Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
I realize that one can kill an edge by bad stropping, but that might be part of the learning curve. Currently, I'm afraid to touch my new dovo to stone until I've successfully honed a cheap razor off ebay. I'd rather be out the $8 I spent on the ebay blade than to do serious harm to my $90 dovo, which Lynn sharpened, and I've been very happy with.
Jim
OK guys in an effort to bring this topic back on course (as I feel it may be risking verging slightly off-course) I shall repost the original post. I shall do so taking out what was spoken of, I shall put in what we discussed and I shall re-organize the layout and format. I shall also start a new thread which it seems has sprung up immediately as an offshoot of this one- one about Vendors. After this I shall give a brief summary of what changes have been made and why they were made. I shall try my *very best* to summarize what has been said so far. THIS IS BY NO MEANS A FINAL DRAFT and I still welcome comments. So without further ado.....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FAQ: 'SHAVE READY' RAZORS- an explanation
There seems to be a lot of confusion on what shave ready means to dealers, and what a truly shave ready razor means to an experienced shaver. Shave ready according to a dealer (generally concerning new razors) are razors that have been mechanically sharpened (generally on a waterstone type wheel) and then hand honed on a stone of some sort.
So if it is brand new and says "shave ready" why isn’t it REALLY shave ready??
The reason for this is most probably due to the cost of the man hours required to make a razor truly shave ready for our purposes. The cost of workmanship would drive the razor prices up and prevent a company from being as competitive in the marketplace with another company that does not spend this time and energy on finishing, and yet can still call their razors shave ready. These razors are sharp of course, and you could shave with them, so don’t think that you are getting ripped off or lied too.
The difference between a factory shave ready razor and a razor that has been honed by an expert is the experience level, time, techniques as well as equipment spent honing. The fact that their honing is done by hand with no machine grinding makes a VERY large difference in the final edge, and of course the closer detail to the edge that can be observed while hand honing.
The shave from an expertly honed razor will be a much more comfortable, close, and smooth shave than a factory sharpened TI, DOVO, or what have you. This means little or no pulling of your facial hair and less razor burn, as well as a marker for the time when you yourself start honing.
How to get a truly shave ready Razor
If you buy a razor from Classic Shaving they offer honing services via Lynn Abrams which really makes it convenient to get a brand new shave ready razor that will make your learning curve easier. Straight Razor Place also has a Buy/Sell/Trade forum where it is possible to buy a used and/or refurbished razor that has also been hand honed and is truly shave ready. This will allow the new shaver to get a quality straight razor that is really ready to shave with. This option generally cost less money than a factory new razor which is not really shave ready according to our high standards.
So what’s the big deal?
The bottom line is, at least for your first razor whether new or used, make sure it is truly shave ready by having it hand honed by an expert, this can make or break your shaving experience and WILL show you what sharp truly means. We have seen many new users give up on straight razor shaving because they tried to start with a razor that wasnt really shave ready resulting in painful and inadequate shaves.
OTHER QUESTIONS:
I have taken a fair whack out of the original in order to create the Vendors link. I have also turned the questions at the end into links to their related question. Click them and try them out! :)
I have also removed personal recommendations and opinions expressed in the original post. The following is a *brief* summary of what has been discussed so far which should allow some posts to be deleted at a later date....
heavydutysg135 and Sticky both commented they were happy with the original comments as they were. Azjoe commented that it should be pointed out that the vendors list is not a complete list and are not preferred recommendations. Some members were removed from the original post due to inactivity. AFDavis11 expressed concern over the vendor descriptions.It was felt unfair for opinions to be expressed on the work of some vendors. As a result the vendor thread only contains information on what the vendor does and how they can be contacted. On later reflection it was discussed that we should have a seperate thread for vendors, which was seconded and the thread has begun.
*Phew*
I think it looks really good... here's a couple picky things you may want to fix:
- 1st paragraph: the sentence "Thiers Issard for instance use Belgian waterstones." doesn't really add anything in my opinion, so I suggest it be deleted. If you decide not to delete it, then change "use" to "uses".
- 4th paragraph: the sentence "This means little or no pulling of your facial hair, and less razor burn, as well as a marker for the time when you yourself start honing."... I'd suggest deleting the comma after the word "hair".
- 5th paragraph: in the sentence "Straight Razor Place also have a Buy/Sell/Trade forum..." change "have" to "has".
Lastly, I'd put "tbd"s at the end of each question so we remember to fill them in when those FAQs are completed.
Joe-
1. Done
2. Done
3. Done
And lastly I was planning on leaving the questions in on the final draft of the FAQ. If you click on them you'll see they link to the related FAQ. Thats where the vendor info I took out of the original post went....
I will go with the majority on this but I think it works better like this.
So if there are no objections, I think it's ready to publish. Any nay votes?
Actually i'd like us to consider changing the title of the thread. Its purely cosmetic but I would prefer;
FAQ: Why is my razor not 'shave ready'?
or something similar. I believe the title of the thread should match both the contents of the thread and the question that Joe Newbie is likely to be asking himself.
Or, "Is the razor I got (or plan to get) really shave ready?Quote:
Originally Posted by sidneykidney
I agree with Alan on this point. Robert is a very competent craftsman but to my limited knowledge he is not a collector.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
I also agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickelking
Yes, I agree too. Still, the current link, 'who can make my razor shave ready' only list vendors where you can buy such razor. I think keeping it as a word of mouth, as Jim said is the wisest option, but we should add a paragraph on that. May be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickelking http://straightrazorpalace.com/image...s/viewpost.gif
I'll second that, while it's good to have some honers listed it kind of relegates everyone else to second tier, if there is to be a honers directory I think it should be kept separate and in the vendors' forum. Unless of course the vendor has the explicit support of the forum. You could end up with people being leery of buying a shave ready razor in B/S/T.
Otherwise a separate list in the vendors' forum would be appropriate.
'Many experienced members of this forum offer honing services for a very modest fee. Although we are unable to provide a list it should be fairly easy to find them.'
Also it does seem that we endorse the shave-readiness of all B/S/T offers. I wonder whether
woks as a small warning? But now I'm thinking that this may only complicate things unnecessary as I believe virtually all shave-ready razors in B/S/T are so, and we can deal with the exception when it happens.Quote:
Straight Razor Place also has a Buy/Sell/Trade forum where it is possible to buy a used and/or refurbished razor that has also been hand honed and is truly shave ready, according to the seller.
Make it simple, or cover our arses?
I didnt think Americans said 'arses'. I thought it was 'asses'. That has brightened my day already. :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by gugi
If you check out the posts again you will notice that:
a) The current FAQ for this thread as it stands (which is 10 posts above this one) has no mention of vendors at all. This has been removed and placed in a different FAQ. There is a link to the thread in the post now.
b) The vendor FAQ is likely to be put in the vendor forum. It wont have any comment on opinions of the vendor work. Simply the services they provide, their name, username, URL and if they desire, their location. I have contacted each vendor listed asking for an accurate description of their work and am updating it as I get replies.
Please check my most recent and up to date posting of how the FAQ is looking.
Many thanks,
Sandy
well i'm not an american even though i live here. our english education was based on british, although nowadays that may be quite different :)
One thing I wonder in light of Bruno's post is how do you qualify people as vendors - there was something about enthusiasts etc. I'm not disputing whether Bruno should be added or not, just thinking that you don't want to be put in a situation where you have to make subjective decisions who gets listed and who doesn't.
Making some sort of a policy would save a lot of headaches to whoever manages this. Say every 6 months the vendors listed are contacted to confirm they are active and if not are taken off the list or something.
The way i'm working at the moment is this: a vendor should be nominated either by PM or via forum by someone other than themselves. If this is agreed with i'll contact the vendor and ask if they want to be put on, what they'd like on there and if I may put a location down.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
That avoids me turning round and saying 'I'm an excellent honemeister!' (I cant hone for toffee). ;)
However this is being led away from the topic in hand and unless there are any objections to the actual Shave-ready post I think we should close and lock the sticky.
LAST CALL- If there is anything you disagree with on the shave ready thread then speak now or forever hold thy peace. :p
This is going at a very fast pace. Lets slow own a bit so that more people, myself included, have more time to think these over and make suggestions. These FAQ are for the long term so lets not rush anything.
Do I hear a second to this motion?:)
Having my first cup of coffee and getting ready for another very busy day will little time for SRP stuff,
Guys, lets try to stay focused and on-topic. Nothing will be gained by diluting our focus across to many issues at once.
The specific issue at hand in this thread is to decide whether [this] version of the shave ready faq (with the attendant modifications which followed in a couple posts) is ready to publish.
I'm not discounting that the discussion on how to deal with listing vendors is useful, but it's no longer germane to this thread (unless someone suggests that info be re-included in the faq).
I would also like to note that nothing we put into the FAQ should be considered as "cast in concrete"... we should be able to update any FAQ at a later date as corrections, additional information, and new ideas surface. The FAQs should be living documents.
Randy I agree with you completely on this. BELIEVE me I understand they will take a long time to put each one together. However....Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I see the FAQs in the same way as Joe does. Putting them up there to be published doesnt mean they're finished with. Its just going to be up there. We can come back to it as other people read this thread and update it as required.Quote:
Originally Posted by azjoe
OK, I agree to this version of the FAQ since the option to modify it in the future is available.
Another yes vote.