Setting the #@!!$&#! Bevel

I have touched up shaving razors before with some success, but now find myself having to set a bevel on a Dovo stainless.

I have read the following things about this exercise:

1. It can be time consuming (so far so good, because it is consuming a whole boatload of my time);
2. It is the toughest part of honing (still on track here; I am certainly finding it tough);
3. It may take many passes over the hone (three for three: I am certainly in the range of what I would call "many");
4. It is the basis for all subsequent honing steps (which, despite making perfect sense, is where the whole thing gets all bollocksed-up, because it ain't working out);
5. Generally, the sign that one has reached the end of this phase is that the blade grabs the thumbnail at every point along the shaving edge (which also sucks, because I have been unable to reach that point).

Apparently, 3 of 5 is not good enough.

So far I have alternated between failing to set the bevel correctly on a Norton 1000 and failing to set the bevel correctly on a Naniwa 1000. Both stones have been lapped using 320 grit sandpaper on a countertop, and their edges are bevelled nicely (see, I pay attention to you guys and your written wisdom).

I have spent hours trying to set the edge on this :cen thing. Once or twice I've got it to where it feels all vicious and edgy, and pops arm hairs off nicely, but then I go to the 4K and the 8K (using what is called the "agreesive pyramid" in the wiki) and my nasty edge disappears. Both times I have got it to feel "edgy" on the 1K were after getting frustrated and putting some pressure on the blade for a few strokes.

I have put sharpie on, and the marks all disappears right to the edge. Under examination using a Pentax loupe, the bevel appears to be a single plane, going straight to the edge of the blade. I know there is a bit of a problem near the toe on one side; the edge there doesn't make contact with the hone on one side unless I "help" it, but that doesn't seem capable of explaining my issue; the rest of the thing never really gets sharp.

I am thinking that the following may be the problem:

1. not having gone for long enough (ie. not having taken off enough metal);
2. not knowing how much pressure to use;
3. a warp in the blade keeping the thing from getting proper pressure all the way across (see the mention of the toe issue, above);
4. I am doing a rubbish job; or
5. All of the above.

I purchased this blade new from Dovo, so I am aware that the bevel may have been set at the factory at an angle much different to the one I am trying to make now (not using tape), but how many laps should this take? I have spent literally hours, and probably hundreds of strokes, on it so far.

And yes, I have ordered Lynn's DVD. So far I can't seem get that X-stroke to work with one hand; I need to steady the toe with the other.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated. I like this razor so don't want to ruin it learning. I have a Cerena with a chipped edge that maybe I should learn on.

OK, follow-up: I just put the edge up to a known straight-edge, and see that there is a very slight warp to the blade - on one side I see a sliver of daylight in the middle of the blade, while the ends touch the straight edge, and on the other side there is a slight sliver of light at the heel and the toe. I guess that tells me what the problem is.

Well you have the right tools and it seems your technique should be working with what you described. Watch the water or slurry in front of the blade it should look like your edge is acting like a squeegy. You should see a solid wave in front of the edge this wil tell you if your making good contact.

I would definitely start with the older razor first till you get comfortable with your stroke. It sounds like you might be alittle heavy handed also. If the edge feels sticky on you nail and the 4k or 8k makes it dull your probably cutting thru your previous work then it takes forever to re-establish the new bevel with the 4k.

Good Luck!!!

I have been thinking about your problem. From the way you describe it I can tell that you have done some studying in the Wiki and that is good. I was lucky enough to have a forum member who knows his way around a hone show me how he does it.

So I don't know if what I am telling you here is "right" but it is the way I do it. For one thing I use one layer of electrical tape. If you're doing circles and paddle strokes with pressure it is nice to protect the spine.

I was surprised at the pressure he applied in setting the bevel. It is hard to describe. It wasn't like he was rolling dough with a rolling pin but it was more then "the weight of the blade". One of the things he told me is that it is about removing metal and if you are going to remove it you may as well go ahead and do it expeditiously.

I learned to use circular strokes from him in setting a bevel and also paint brush or paddle strokes. Basically you're doing a regular honing stroke with a bit of pressure in a forward direction and then pulling it back in a back honing direction. I do 10 back and forth on one side and then 10 on the other.

Every so often check your edge with the eye loupe and the TNT. Shouldn't take many of these to get you to where you can do normal X strokes on your bevel setter. Once I get the TNT to where I want it I do 10 light strokes on the bevel setter and then move up to the 4k.

On the 4/8 or whatever I do as Glen once said and use enough pressure to keep the blade flat on the hone. If it is a full hollow that blade is thinner then a piece of paper so it doesn't take much but it does take some.

If you've got a smiling blade or a warped spine then the "rolling X" is one way or, as Lynn likes to do, an X stroke with the blade at a 45 degree angle to the stone. I have used both techniques with success. Which I use depends on the particular blade.

If it is a warped spine a narrow hone is a handy thing to have. If your hone is 1" thick you can turn it on edge. If all you have is a wide hone and it isn't thick enough to turn on edge you have to try and manipulate the blade to "get" that concave part along with the rest of it. As Randy says, it takes patience and persistence. :gl:

which dovo model is this, they have several stainless ones.

the best way for ensuring the blade gets equal pressure as you hone is to watch the water in front of it. just watch it and your hand will adjust to make the bead uniform, the difference is very small so it's almost impossible to do it by trying, just relax (blame Xman in another thread for this word) and let it happen.

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Originally Posted by gugi

... just relax (blame Xman in another thread for this word) and let it happen.

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Punish the monkey, eh.

I'm concerned about the edge getting worse when transitioning from the 1k to the 4k and 8k pyramids. Since you lapped the 1ks, I obviously would assume that you also lapped and beveled the 4k and 8k. What kind of sandpaper did you use? Was it woodworker's dry sandpaper or was it wet/dry sandpaper? If it's the former, you might have grit embedded in the hones tearing up your edges.

Given the amount of reading you have done, I doubt you made that mistake but I thought I should throw it out there.

Hello,

The sandpaper was 320 grit wet+ dry (Norton brand), what we used to call 'emery cloth'.

I have lapped all the hones, but am going to do it again just to make sure.

I think the issue might be that, when I have put enough pressure to get the edge on the blade at the 1000 grit level, the warp straigtens out. I then go to the next stone, where I've been backing off and going quite gently, which means that the blade geometry has changed and the 4000 grit is actually trying to set a different angle than the 1000 has established. The notion of using the edge of the 1000 makes sense, but neither the Naniwas nor the Norton 4K/8K combo can be used this way.

I have gone back to the nicked Cerena I mentioned, and have ground it down enough to get rid of the nick. I've got it to a place where it is very sharp on the 1K Norton. I'll not graduate to the finer grits and see what happens.

Thanks to all those who have posted the helpful comments so far.

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Originally Posted by TheViolentVicar

I think the issue might be that, when I have put enough pressure to get the edge on the blade at the 1000 grit level, the warp straigtens out. I then go to the next stone, where I've been backing off and going quite gently, which means that the blade geometry has changed and the 4000 grit is actually trying to set a different angle than the 1000 has established.

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Begging your pardon but that doesn't make sense to me. :shrug: If you are using a consistent stroke and angle it shouldn't matter which hone you are on IMO. The bevel is set and then then followed on the finer stones IME. If any stone is going to cause a misshapen bevel it would be the 1k. Not that you couldn't mess it up on the 4k but if the stroke and angle are consistent throughout the progression that shouldn't be an issue.

something i have noticed when going from my Norton 1k to the 4k and 8k might explain the blade getting duller. when you hone on the 1k because of the grit size it creates tiny teeth on the edge which would be what grabs your thumb nail. these are what will pop a hair when some say that their blade was popping hairs off the 1k (but obviously shaves like crap). so when you go to the 4k, these teeth will get honed off initially making the blade seem dull. if you stay on that grit for a bit longer the blade starts to come back and will actually pop hairs the right way. after the 4k you are mainly polishing and refining which shouldn't take too long.

this is how it was explained to me and it has worked ever since. i don't have anything to magnify the edge enough to see if this is what is happening, but to me it makes sense.

this is also why i only use the pyramids for touch ups, not the initial honing. this is not to say that they won't work, they will, but i prefer to stay on one grit until i can see things are ready for the next. everyone is different.

good luck
Wes

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Begging your pardon but that doesn't make sense to me. :shrug: If you are using a consistent stroke and angle it shouldn't matter which hone you are on IMO. The bevel is set and then then followed on the finer stones IME. If any stone is going to cause a misshapen bevel it would be the 1k. Not that you couldn't mess it up on the 4k but if the stroke and angle are consistent throughout the progression that shouldn't be an issue.

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I think that, by pressing on the blade harder, it flattens out and makes full contact with the hone. When the pressure is relaxed, the blade springs back to its slightly warped shape and the contact with the subsequent hones is different.

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Originally Posted by gugi

... just relax (blame Xman in another thread for this word) and let it happen.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

Punish the monkey, eh.

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I just blame xman for everything. Doesn't make your blade any sharper but you feel a whole lot better! :rofl2:

I'm no fan of forcing the blade in contact with the hone. As you experienced, once you need to back-off on the pressure on the finer hones, you're in trouble.

You are using the X-stroke, are you? Because that is absolutely imperative for dealing with this issue.
Drag the edge without any significant pressure over the bottom of a glass. This will dull the edge just enough to duck all sharpness tests, including the shave armhair test. Make sure of it.
Next soak the Naniwa 1K and start honing. The way to speed up the process is to stay on one side of the blade for awhile. Just hone back and forth, doing "half X's" with slight pressure, but not so much that it flexes the blade. Count the laps. Flip the blade over and repeat on the other side. (lets start with 30 each) Check with the TNT. Part of the heel and or toe should be responding. Repeat the single sided back and forth laps. Check again. Monitor progress. Stay doing this till the entire edge passes the TNT. Only then, finalize bevel stage with about 30 regular X-strokes. I second watching the bead of water as a guide for your stroke.

Should the warp be so severe that the regular X-stroke does not solve the problem, you can lap the narrow side of you Naniwa 1K, as narrow hones can follow a warp better than wide hones. In that case, you need equally narrow hones for the rest of the progression. You can hone on the side of a Norton 4K/8K combo stone, and consider it a 4K hone. But if you're without a narrow 8K hone, you would have run into a dead end. So I would try dealing with it in the normal fashion first.

Bart.

Bart:

Many thanks for your message. The Naniwas come laminated permanently to a plastic base which prevents using the narrow edge, so as you say, it is regular x-stroke (or a new set of hones) for me.

Regards,

Mike

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Originally Posted by TheViolentVicar

I think that, by pressing on the blade harder, it flattens out and makes full contact with the hone. When the pressure is relaxed, the blade springs back to its slightly warped shape and the contact with the subsequent hones is different.

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If that is the amount of pressure you were applying I would say that is way too much. Take a look at the rolling x or the x with the blade at a 45 degree angle.... or a combination of the two. Maybe send it out to a honemiester?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If that is the amount of pressure you were applying I would say that is way too much. Take a look at the rolling x or the x with the blade at a 45 degree angle.... or a combination of the two. Maybe send it out to a honemiester?

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Quite agree. I was getting p*ssed off and got a result that way that clued me in to another way to look at the problem, but I certainly know I was pushing too hard.

As an update, I mentioned my old Cerena razor, which I have had for many moons. It had a nick in the blade of about 1mm in diamater, right on the shaving edge. I spent about 2.5 hours on it, mostly on the 1K, and it's honed up just dandy. I've not shaved with it yet, but it's popping hairs left right and centre (or, rather, heel, toe and centre). I think therefore that the problem with the other blade is definitely some odd geometry, and I am reassured that I have successfully absorbed some portion of what you all have told me in this forum.

I'll report back with progress on the warped blade in due course. Ongoing comments very much appreciated.

I think a warped blade is probably the toughest things you're ever going to have to handle getting a razor to shave. Many people just toss them.