question: angle of approach

so, I've been going over my first straight shave from earlier in the day and thinking about the areas that are still pretty stubbly. With blade in hand but not actually putting it on my face again (until tomorrow), I can't figure out how to get ATG for the corners of my mouth (grows kinda south-westish on the left side and straight south on the right side) or the E-W hair growth on my neck on either side of my adam's apple.

Before anyone says to avoid ATG for now I have to say this: I'm obsessive and impatient. As much as I want to tell myself I can avoid it, I'm not fooling anyone, let alone myself. I may not be able to sleep until I feel like I'm making progress. :thinking:

Any tips?

ps. I'm very visual. If anyone could provide pics I would be in your debt.

first i will say that although lots recommend not doing ATG at first, everyone is different, do what suits you, i did and although it may have slowed my progress learning wise, i don't know how to do it any other way :).

that being said, i don't bother trying for an exact ATG on every part of my face anymore as it is simply not necessary, for me. for my neck i go straight down first pass but following the jaw line as i move out, then i do another down but perpendicular to my jaw line, then i go straight up. as long as my razor is sharp and i keep things light pressure wise this does the best job for me so far. going East - West or vice versa is unrealistic to me and not worth the effort. also you really do have to stretch the neck skin to get those hairs standing up, that was a big point for me.

hope this helps.:gl:

Near the mouth: I've learned to contort my face so that the blade can "overhang" my mouth without making contact with my lips. This makes positioning easier. I find a simple S-N pass is close enough to being ATG, so try that.

On the neck: I have the same E-W growth problem as you, and I can't say I've fixed it. ATG is pretty much impossible. However, a very sharp blade and good technique gets rid of the stubble, even if you can't do a pure ATG pass. Stretching helps - position the thumb and forefinger of your free hand low on the neck and pull down and outwards. Once you've shaved the lower part of the neck you can then move your stretching hand up a bit. You can then swap to using the middle 3 fingers if you prefer.

You have to turn the blade edge up, thumb on top of the spine and fingers on the bottom. Razor in right hand, toe pointing to your left, use your left hand to stretch your upper left lip to the SW. Then carefully use the toe of the razor to go ATG towards the nose. Reverse for the right side.

WARNING! This is called the coup de buffon, or the Fool's Pass. You can cut a big chunk of your nose off this way.

Normally, you should not use a full hollow ground carbon steel razor to do this. It's much safer to use a 1/4 or 1/2 hollow razor, which is much stiffer and has less tendency to "stall and jump". (A FHG stainless razor is usually stiff enough, also.)

In any case, you should do the coup de maítre (the Master's Pass) first WTG and then if possible XTG first, to reduce the length of stubble you have to cut ATG.

Be extremely careful with this! It's probably much better if you simply cannot get an acceptable shave in that area to use a DE for that touch-up, until you have lots more experience.

I think neither of the razors I have right now are amazingly sharp. Gonna get one of those radioshack microscopes tomorrow to check out the edges. Also gonna try using my go-to soap TABAC. I was trying some new soaps today in addition to trying both razors. Cutting down on the variables will help the learning curve I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fritz

WARNING! This is called the coup de buffon, or the Fool's Pass. You can cut a big chunk of your nose off this way.

Normally, you should not use a full hollow ground carbon steel razor to do this. It's much safer to use a 1/4 or 1/2 hollow razor, which is much stiffer and has less tendency to "stall and jump". (A FHG stainless razor is usually stiff enough, also.)

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Luckily I have a steady hand, I don't think I'll cut my nose off (famous last words). I have 2 razors, one of them is a Dovo Best, the other is a Vintage Udahl. I have NO idea what the grinds are on them. How do I identify the grind?

totally unrelated, I feel like both of these razors are a little light for me. Are there heavier blades out there? I'm totally uneducated in the matter but something doesn't feel right. like I'm missing some heft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arthur

I think neither of the razors I have right now are amazingly sharp. Gonna get one of those radioshack microscopes tomorrow to check out the edges. Also gonna try using my go-to soap TABAC. I was trying some new soaps today in addition to trying both razors. Cutting down on the variables will help the learning curve I think.

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If you didn't buy them as shave-ready honed, then you need to have that done to at least one razor before you continue. If they're just straight from the factory, or well-used, you've got to get one honed to proper sharpness to learn how to shave with one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arthur

Luckily I have a steady hand, I don't think I'll cut my nose off (famous last words). I have 2 razors, one of them is a Dovo Best, the other is a Vintage Udahl. I have NO idea what the grinds are on them. How do I identify the grind?

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Steadiness of hand has nothing to do with the danger I described. It's due to the sharpness (or not) of the blade, its flexibility, and the toughness and length of the whiskers.

The Dovo Best is FHG, and comes in 5/8 or 6/8 widths. (You identify the grind by looking at the razor, after some experience; OR, by looking at the manufacturer's description.:))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arthur

totally unrelated, I feel like both of these razors are a little light for me. Are there heavier blades out there? I'm totally uneducated in the matter but something doesn't feel right. like I'm missing some heft.

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In general, 1/2 and 1/4 hollow grinds are heavier, since not as much metal is ground away. The Dovo "Best Quality" is a 1/2 hollow grind in 6/8 width.

What about your stropping techniques? (You do have a strop?) Perhaps you have not read enough in the SRP Wiki; lots of good info there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fritz

You have to turn the blade edge up, thumb on top of the spine and fingers on the bottom. Razor in right hand, toe pointing to your left, use your left hand to stretch your upper left lip to the SW. Then carefully use the toe of the razor to go ATG towards the nose. Reverse for the right side.

WARNING! This is called the coup de buffon, or the Fool's Pass. You can cut a big chunk of your nose off this way.

Normally, you should not use a full hollow ground carbon steel razor to do this. It's much safer to use a 1/4 or 1/2 hollow razor, which is much stiffer and has less tendency to "stall and jump". (A FHG stainless razor is usually stiff enough, also.)

In any case, you should do the coup de maítre (the Master's Pass) first WTG and then if possible XTG first, to reduce the length of stubble you have to cut ATG.

Be extremely careful with this! It's probably much better if you simply cannot get an acceptable shave in that area to use a DE for that touch-up, until you have lots more experience.

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See xman's demonstration here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...technique.html
His 2-handed grip at that area was what scared me most when I first saw it, but it gives a lot of control I found.

If you try the fool's pass you shouldn't be forcing the blade at all. If you get any resistance, if you feel anything less than 100% in control, just stop. You can get great results going sideways without the same risk.

With that disclaimer out of the way...
http://www.g-ray.co.uk/pictures/MrTfp3.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

See xman's demonstration here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...technique.html
His 2-handed grip at that area was what scared me most when I first saw it, but it gives a lot of control I found.
...

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Yes, great videos by a shaver with tons of experience. You will also notice that he switched to a FULL WEDGE for the Fool's Pass. A FHG is just so flexible that even two-handed I suspect you would have a lot of trouble.

I use a Wapi or a DA for that pass, unless I'm already shaving with my Dovo Renaissance, which is FHG, but SS and as stiff as a wedge.

I was impatient, I guess, because I shaved against the grain from the outset because I wanted a close shave, and there didn't seem to be any other way to get one. I just learned to go both ways. As far as the nose thing, I've never felt my nose threatened because I'm going pretty slow and short at that point, but I do tend to get nicks in some sensitive areas around the corners of my mouth with a full hollow, which will catch on irregularities and bumps more than a quarter or half-hollow or a wedge. I think basically the learning curve is a little steep, but once you have got something comfortable, it's just minor tweaks after that. Habit serves one well not getting crossed up and moving these instruments of destruction the wrong way.

Don J.:)

wow great vid, you can see the angles of the blade perfectly a few times.

i use that same 2 handed thing when doing under the nose, and when goin ATG under my jawline. adds control in places where it wants to skid

For your neck, I have a similar deal going on, and I do what is sometimes called a sythe. That is, I do a S-N pass with a lateral slide, in your case you'd wanna go W-E. It's almost as good as ATG, almost.

I do have a strop, I'm sure my stropping technique needs work but I'm stropping before and after. I shaved again this morning and I got the corners of my moustache fine today, but I'm feeling a bit of razor burn. Also, my neck feels REALLY sensitive today.. It might be from the different soaps yesterday. Gonna stick to Tabac for a while and let it heal before I start experimenting again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fritz

You have to turn the blade edge up, thumb on top of the spine and fingers on the bottom. Razor in right hand, toe pointing to your left, use your left hand to stretch your upper left lip to the SW. Then carefully use the toe of the razor to go ATG towards the nose. Reverse for the right side.

WARNING! This is called the coup de buffon, or the Fool's Pass. You can cut a big chunk of your nose off this way.

Normally, you should not use a full hollow ground carbon steel razor to do this. It's much safer to use a 1/4 or 1/2 hollow razor, which is much stiffer and has less tendency to "stall and jump". (A FHG stainless razor is usually stiff enough, also.)

In any case, you should do the coup de maítre (the Master's Pass) first WTG and then if possible XTG first, to reduce the length of stubble you have to cut ATG.

Be extremely careful with this! It's probably much better if you simply cannot get an acceptable shave in that area to use a DE for that touch-up, until you have lots more experience.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fritz

Steadiness of hand has nothing to do with the danger I described. It's due to the sharpness (or not) of the blade, its flexibility, and the toughness and length of the whiskers.

The Dovo Best is FHG, and comes in 5/8 or 6/8 widths. (You identify the grind by looking at the razor, after some experience; OR, by looking at the manufacturer's description.:))

In general, 1/2 and 1/4 hollow grinds are heavier, since not as much metal is ground away. The Dovo "Best Quality" is a 1/2 hollow grind in 6/8 width.

What about your stropping techniques? (You do have a strop?) Perhaps you have not read enough in the SRP Wiki; lots of good info there.

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While I'm here, a wedge sounds like it might be what I'm looking for in the heft department. What should I look for?

Also, my beard is COARSE. I'm talking filed metal shavings coarse. I'm thinking the heavier razor would be better for me in general.

I go XTG only on my upper lip and sides of my mouth and get BBS there. The fools pass thing scares the @#$%@ out of me, I tried it a few times back when I first started, then figured I'd be better off figuring out a different way of getting the job done.

You shouldn't need a heavy razor to shave any beard, just a sharp one. Back when I used an electric my whiskers would occasionally jam the razor and I'd have to turn it off and disassemble the cutting head to get it off my face. I use full hollows nearly exclusively. But they've got to be sharp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arthur

While I'm here, a wedge sounds like it might be what I'm looking for in the heft department. What should I look for?

Also, my beard is COARSE. I'm talking filed metal shavings coarse. I'm thinking the heavier razor would be better for me in general.

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I have the same problem! You might want to look at the sticky on the 800-pound gorilla method and other mods to it, at this TSD link. The first recipe is at posting #10, but skim on through it because there are multiple variations that people have found beneficial.

You might want a heavier razor sometime. I would wait until you can shave well with what you have before going off in too many directions. Full wedges are probably not the best for a beginner, but as always YMMV.:)

being impatient + being obsessive about closeness + razors not very sharp = recipe for disaster

i'd say you better prepare for some suffering and discomfort. get an alum block that should help a bit, good moisturizing aftershaves too and if i'm you i'd probably use antibacterial ointment as well - you'll be missing more skin on your face than necessary.

i sometimes do the fool's pass and as long as the razor is very sharp it doesn't present a problem, the hollowness of the blade doesnt seem to be an issue - i've done it with my most hollowed blades as well.

[QUOTE=gugi;392474]being impatient + being obsessive about closeness + razors not very sharp = recipe for disaster

+1 on above statement.
Now I don't worry about BBS shaves. I go for comfort and that's good enough. The smooth face will come in time.
:gl:

I'm gonna just throw this out there... I kinda figured out what worked best for my face, some of it isn't conventional. I basically just went WTG XTG ATG my first time shaving, got some cuts the first few weeks, but I'm better now. For the whole mouth area I make an "O" and roll my lips in, go WTG strictly, then from the outside towards my mouth, regardless of grain direction- this allows me to take a second, easier cut free pass before I go ATG. Then I go ATG and its a lot easier. At that point it's more like a clean up pass than anything else, so I've never snagged. Also, try and shave your mustache exclusively with the toe, while minding the heel. I feel this is easier than shaving with any other part and risking your nose. You can curl your lips in, but your nose will always be jutting out like a tree in woods marked for deforestation...

I got the lip tonight, finally. What I finally settled on is puffing my lip out for 1 N-S pass, then 2 diagonal passes, 1 toward and 1 away from my mouth. It's BBS unless I puff my lip out (because I didn't go ATG at all.) Good thing I don't walk around with my lip puffed out. Now then, the neck remains a mystery. I got some ideas from Fritz in another post, hopefully it will be the answer I needed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

but your nose will always be jutting out like a tree in woods marked for deforestation...

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Not if you slip on that fool's pass :rofl2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Not if you slip on that fool's pass :rofl2:

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Slow and steady wins the race on that one, eh?:chop:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Not if you slip on that fool's pass :rofl2:

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My point was that if you use just the toe, you'd have to be some kinda of genius to dismember your nose. But yes. Using the heel on the fool's pass is like marking you tree nose for doforestation. Slipping is like hiring a lumber jack.