90 degree angle?

Hey shavers,

Just started straight razor shaving 2/3 weeks ago and it's pretty cool.
First I tried the shaving tips, but I find out that I don't really get a close shave when I go with the grain of my hairs.
I've honed my razor on a 8k grit "Belgium block", stropped it on the canvas-side with glass-polish and after that on the leather side. It's sharp enough to cut a hair suspended in mid air.
Also I've softened my hairs by a shower or hot water and use shaving soap..

One thing I've tried is to shave a bit from the 90 degrees angle, like in the picture.
http://qkpic.com/c3ce0

My question is: is this an accident waiting to happen or have I found out something obvious!?
With this angle it cuts hair a lot easier and very close to the skin.
You might wonder why I don't go against the grain.. well :chop::chop::chop:

Greets,
kevor

Hi,

Check out the advanced shaving techniques on the wiki--

Advanced shaving techniques for the straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki


-Chief

Not sure if it's an accident waiting to happen, but it does take a bit more care.
It's a technique that i find useful too.
I tend to go WTG then XTG to get a little closer. I only go ATG on the cheeks as i'll get ingrowns anywhere else.

As far as I know a 30 degree angle is the recommended starting point with subtle changes depending on the area and the direction. A lot of it is trial and error. As you continue you will find what works best for you.

Hmm, it seems it's "normal". Quite a handy guide there. Especially the 5 degrees ATG is helpful info.
I love it that you really have to get some skill, until the day that this skill will be achieved, my skin is in for some troubles :P

I've only straight shaved once, but I did find that the closer to 90 degrees the blade angle was the more it felt like the hair was being pulled instead of cut. I got a little bit more irritation this way.

That being said, it also seemed like the razor 'skipped' a lot less for me at this angle...so, I guess im no help :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nrvna76

I've only straight shaved once, but I did find that the closer to 90 degrees the blade angle was the more it felt like the hair was being pulled instead of cut. I got a little bit more irritation this way.

That being said, it also seemed like the razor 'skipped' a lot less for me at this angle...so, I guess im no help :)

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You and JimmyHAD I think are confusing two different angles: the angle the blade face makes with the skin (about 30 degrees usually) and the angle the blade edge makes with the direction of the stroke (a slight angle either side of 90 degrees is called "scything" and cuts whiskers much easier than "chopping" them with a 90 degree stroke).

I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the blade itself. I've heard guys saying they've used razors almost laying flat on their face, yet other talk about extreme angles. It would depend a lot on your bevel and razor....I think...sometimes an angle like that, will take the skin off with the hair....be careful.....

Like frits said, I'm talking about the angle of the edge against the direction of the stroke.
A straight angle (90 degrees) seems to get a lot more resistance from dense beard parts then when I'm "scything".

You can take a look at the link in BHChieftains post, it's pretty clear.

Also, if you want to try this, be careful! If your not, it's a sure way to making a nice post in the "If you want blood" thread.

Just to clarify, I took this to mean keeping the blade 30 degrees ( or two spines width) from the face, but slanting the blade as it cut.
The stroke direction remains the same, but the heel is lower than the toe. Hope that makes sense.
I'd like it known that i am not yet crazy enough to shave with a razor at 90 degrees to my face! (Well, maybe when i start the stroke right under my nose)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

Just to clarify, I took this to mean keeping the blade 30 degrees ( or two spines width) from the face, but slanting the blade as it cut.
The stroke direction remains the same, but the heel is lower than the toe. Hope that makes sense.
I'd like it known that i am not yet crazy enough to shave with a razor at 90 degrees to my face! (Well, maybe when i start the stroke right under my nose)

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True, there are two ways of scything: hold the edge horizontal and stroke at an angle, or angle the blade off the horizontal and stroke straight down. Both result in the same type of slicing action, but I think it's easier to avoid slicing skin if you stroke straight down with the blade at an angle, as you described.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

Just to clarify, I took this to mean keeping the blade 30 degrees ( or two spines width) from the face, but slanting the blade as it cut.
The stroke direction remains the same, but the heel is lower than the toe. Hope that makes sense.
I'd like it known that i am not yet crazy enough to shave with a razor at 90 degrees to my face! (Well, maybe when i start the stroke right under my nose)

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+1, having the edge and the spine laying on the face is not a technique that I find as effective as having the spine lifted to some extent. The degree varying depending on what is most effective in a specific area. Then again, my beard may not be as tough as some. I think that as we age the diameter of the hair decreases but I'm not sure if I actually read that or imagined it. :thinking: (Talking a senior citizen here)

To clarify, next picture (I'm in a drawing mood ^^)

I'm holding the blade at a 30 degree angle to the skin. Then pull it slightly from the 90 degree angle of the stroke.
(And who would have thought that vector calculus was useful :P)
http://qkpic.com/c3ce0

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Originally Posted by fritz

You and JimmyHAD I think are confusing two different angles: the angle the blade face makes with the skin (about 30 degrees usually) and the angle the blade edge makes with the direction of the stroke (a slight angle either side of 90 degrees is called "scything" and cuts whiskers much easier than "chopping" them with a 90 degree stroke).

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Got it, sorry for the confusion!

I see now we've got some stubble in there!
Similar to my method. I feel safer with mine though, but that may just be fooling myself!
I like your drawings very much though!

Thanks, although they are just some quick sketches to get a feel for Adobe Illustrator :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

Just to clarify, I took this to mean keeping the blade 30 degrees ( or two spines width) from the face, but slanting the blade as it cut.
The stroke direction remains the same, but the heel is lower than the toe. Hope that makes sense.
I'd like it known that i am not yet crazy enough to shave with a razor at 90 degrees to my face! (Well, maybe when i start the stroke right under my nose)

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I find this to be safer then "my" method. The danger is pulling your razor back without moving it down in my case :P Which will obviously leave a cut. Your method eliminates that, while keeping the slanted angle.

I use both techniques (moving the razor in the direction of the toe when pulling down and angling the razor and then pulling down) depending on how much room I have and the part of my face I'm shaving. For example, I have a horizontal crease under my chin that is a danger area. If the blade is moving at all sideways, there's a danger of getting stuck moving horizontally in the crease. In that case, I angle the razor so that it hits the crease at an angle, rather than moving sideways.

I'm not sure how important this is but the barber texts always show the transverse component of the shaving stroke to be in a direction towards the toe of the blade. They also always show all honing and stropping action away from the toe. One text says that this honing action intentionally causes the striations creating the sharp edge to aim towards the toe. Now if you look at a saw blade, the cutting stroke is always into the teeth of the blade. A shaving stroke towards the toe mimics this.

EDIT: I took a 2nd look at honing and the directions of the striations. The recommended X-pattern actually makes the striations point AWAY from the toe so the above makes less sense.

Also, I wouldn't call that a scything action since that term can confuse two aspects of a scythe: the arc of the swing and the angle of the blade with respect to its motion -- two different aspects of the action of a scythe. Think of it this way: The arcing action of swinging an ax or hatchet does not result in any slicing action of the blade. The blade still hits the target "head on". So an arcing action in itself does not provide any slicing.

Edit: relating a saw blade to your picture: Even pulling a saw "backwards" cuts better then trying to push the saw into the wood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TexasBob

I'm not sure how important this is but the barber texts always show the transverse component of the shaving stroke to be in a direction towards the toe of the blade. They also always show all honing and stropping action away from the toe. One text says that this honing action intentionally causes the striations creating the sharp edge to aim towards the toe. Now if you look at a saw blade, the cutting stroke is always into the teeth of the blade. A shaving stroke towards the toe mimics this.

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I took a 2nd look at honing and the directions of the striations. The recommended X-pattern actually makes the striations point AWAY from the toe so the above makes less sense.

Awesome diagrams! Yea, scything. Be safe . . .

I greatly prefer toe-leading rather than heel-leading as those diagrams show when shaving at angles like this

This way, if the razor catches, the blade will come to perpendicular against the motion of the razor because of the pivot

If I lead with the heel and the razor catches, the angle of the edge will come closer to parallel against the skin, greatly increasing the risk of a slice or cut

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I greatly prefer toe-leading rather than heel-leading as those diagrams show when shaving at angles like this

This way, if the razor catches, the blade will come to perpendicular against the motion of the razor because of the pivot

If I lead with the heel and the razor catches, the angle of the edge will come closer to parallel against the skin, greatly increasing the risk of a slice or cut

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Now THAT makes a lot of sense!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

This way, if the razor catches, the blade will come to perpendicular against the motion of the razor because of the pivot

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This sounds good.

Well it's time.. my skin is recovered. Cover me, I'm going in....
:mace:

I myself use both types of scything motions depending on the portion of my face that I'm shaving. Something that you also have to realize is your own experience. When I first started straight shaving, I could get a shave equally as close with an electric as I could with a WTG pass. However, after a little while my technique developed, and now I can get a very close shave WTG. In fact, on my cheeks I don't even go XTG or ATG on a daily basis, unless there is some occasion for it.

Also, keep in mind that scything is an easier way to cut yourself. When I first started trying this, on more than one occasion I had more across movement than downward, and if you do that you are pretty much effectively slicing your face like a piece of meat. My advice would be try it, carefully, and you will find what works best for you. After all, straight shaving requires different strokes for different folks.:gl:

Whoo, survived it without nicking... Hold off the 911-calls :D

heh, I remember thinking the same thing. One reason for the confusion on the issue is that the recommended angle for both the cutting angle and the shaving angle is the same for both, 30º. I, like many, also use a scything stroke and sometimes heel leading.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/61...d73b21.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/61...b3077c.jpg?v=0

X

For me, the closer I got to the 90 degree mark, the more it felt like the hair was being pulled out of my face.