Can't Lather...

Hey guys,

Im a n00b and will be getting my first razor in a couple of days. The only problem I'm having is that I cant get my soap to lather. I think I did it once but it didnt stay thick and creamy. I am using Van Der Hagen soap as well as Ugly Mug soap. I have tried making lather in the bowl that came with the VDH Premium Set and also just making lather on my face using the brush. I have now ordered Tabac shaving cream to see if I have any better luck making lather with cream. Am I just doing something wrong with the soap?

My steps:

- Soak brush while im in the shower

- Dry off brush a bit (get rid of excess water)

- soap the brush up a little bit

- Make circular motions on my face to try and make lather/make circular motions in the bowl to try and make lather

- add a little water if lather does not seem to be forming


Any help?

Thanks,
KWood34

Here is a little hint before everyone says get this soap or that soap....

One, read the Wiki on lathering, but really the only variables are the heat and amount of water in regards to the soap...

Two, keep practicing with the VDH soap until it works for you really well

If you can lather Williams or VDH and get a good thick lather out of them that lasts, you can lather anything.....

yeah take a look at the wiki, the photos there may be helpful, even though they're not the same as seeing it done live.
i'd say use more soap as it's easier to add water slowly until you figure the right proportions.
in fact my lather today wasn't very good, perhaps i had too much water on the brush and loaded too little soaps, or it may be the 'hot towel' preshave i tried... it'll be good the next time i'm sure, but it can happen even if you've done it a lot.

the other thing is perhaps do the cream for a bit as it should be rather easy to lather (i haven't used it much, but it worked nicely, not superthick lather but nice and puffy). then you can revisit the soaps again.

Wiki, Wiki, Wiki!

Three components . . . lots of cream/soap. With a soap I use some pressure and load the brush up. Water, the amount is a variable. Brush action. . . go to town, don't be timid.

Soap, water, and brush action.

With the whole affair; BE BOLD! Add hot water, squeeze the water out of the brush. Load a good portion of soap (you can always cut back later), add a strong firm whipping action to the whole affair, as if the lather is made by a blender style action. Add more water until the soap explodes!

You should be golden with way too much lather. Remember lather is soap and water whipped together with air.

You said: "a little bit" when referring to soaping the brush. Load that baby up! I also lather directly on my face - load the brush until you have a nice paste, then lather on a wet face for longer than you would think. More, more, and more...:gl:

Jordan

I find it easier to lather in a bowl. Doesn't have to be a fancy bowl, any old bowl will do. It's all in the wrist, like beating eggs with a whisk.

While you are soaking your brush in hot water, try drizzling a little bit of really hot water on top of the soap to soften it up (just a little, like a 1/4 teaspoon). This will help load up the brush. I've also found that the hotter the water, the easier it it to get rich lather.

When I started, I tended to use too much water, so all I got was wimpy runny lather. Now I squeeze out nearly all of the water from the brush, load it up on the (softened) soap puck, then add a drizzle of water into the base of the brush if the lather is too thick or dry.

Took me a while to figure out the right proportions.

Please report back on your progress!

-Chief

I use a wet brush in the mug with a bit of water and make circular patterns in the mug. I then transfer the lather to my face. I also like the Kiss My Face shaving gel product as it's a lot easier on the skin than soap and seems to lather just fine. I did like the Toms of Maine shaving cream but they've stopped carrying it.

Have you watched mantic's videos on the mater on youtube? Not all creams lather, have you examined the tabac brand to make sure that it will lather for you? I have no experience with Tabac cream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

While you are soaking your brush in hot water, try drizzling a little bit of really hot water on top of the soap to soften it up (just a little, like a 1/4 teaspoon). This will help load up the brush. I've also found that the hotter the water, the easier it it to get rich lather.

When I started, I tended to use too much water, so all I got was wimpy runny lather. Now I squeeze out nearly all of the water from the brush, load it up on the (softened) soap puck, then add a drizzle of water into the base of the brush if the lather is too thick or dry.

Took me a while to figure out the right proportions.

Please report back on your progress!

-Chief

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Thats actually exactly what I do. I follow all the steps Ive seen in many lathering instructional videos including mantic's and jockeys' videos. I dont really know what Im doing wrong...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbcohen

Have you watched mantic's videos on the mater on youtube? Not all creams lather, have you examined the tabac brand to make sure that it will lather for you? I have no experience with Tabac cream.

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Yes I have seen almost all of mantic's videos now and that is where I got got the instructions for making lather. I dont know about the tabac cream but Ill find out soon enough. Also, I was assuming since the tabac soap is so highly rated for lathering well and being a good product, that the cream should be similar. We'll see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnich67

You said: "a little bit" when referring to soaping the brush. Load that baby up! I also lather directly on my face - load the brush until you have a nice paste, then lather on a wet face for longer than you would think. More, more, and more...:gl:

Jordan

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OK Maybe "a little bit" were the wrong words. I do load that baby up I load the brush for a good 10 seconds trying to get as much soap on it as I can and then if no lather forms I pick up more soap with the brush. And for right now Im not going to lather on my face anymore because that "more, more, and more" got me a red raw spot on my lower right cheek. Like I brushed too much. It seems to be going away now, I got it yesterday.

10 seconds could well be too little. I would probably take 3 times that, but I've never timed it.

You want the brush to be clumped together with soap, really thick with it. The tip about putting a little hot water on there is a good one, it softens up the soap nicely.

Option number 2 is to pick up a cheap cream, it's easier to add cream if you use too much water, or didn't have enough in the first place, that is more difficult with soap.

Try squeezing the brush dry first and shaking it. Then put soap on the brush and lather on your face. If it is dry then add "little tiny" drops of water to the brush and continue with that back and forth while lathering on your face. That should work.

Thanks for all the advice.

I tried it again today and didnt work. However, then i remembered that there was one method of lather making that mantic had gone over that I hadn;t tried: making lather in my hand. I tried it and it seemed to work a little better, however still not quite creamy. I think I just need a little more practice using my hand.

Ill wait for the tabac cream to get here to try using the bowl method again.

Thanks again,
KWood34

Practice. Also, if your hand works better you may have hard water. Try some bottled water and see if things improve. Hard water doesn't lather.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Practice. Also, if your hand works better you may have hard water. Try some bottled water and see if things improve. Hard water doesn't lather.

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Im pretty sure I dont have hard water. Regular soap lathers well and none of the other side affects of hard water are present.

I will just continue practicing and see if that helps.

Extreme wet-start method.

Extreme dry-start method.

:gl:

When I first started wet shaving, it seemed like the lather was always terrible. I'd either get big soapy lather that didn't do much, and sort of slid off my face or I'd get a really creamy sticky soap paste that wouldn't lather.

For me, if you just can't get the soap to lather up, try adding just a tiny bit more water to your brush. When I can't get lather, and I know I've properly loaded my brush with soap, I'll go ahead and work it around on my face with the brush anyway, and then dip the very tip of the brush back in the hot water. Not a full dip, and never under the tap. Just the very tips dipped into hot water. Then I put the brush back to my face, and the lather explodes out of nowhere.

Once I've got the "big lather" I like to continue to work it just a bit. This will break the bubbles down, and form smaller bubbles, giving you just the right amount of cushion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KerryWood34

Thanks for all the advice.

I tried it again today and didnt work. However, then i remembered that there was one method of lather making that mantic had gone over that I hadn;t tried: making lather in my hand. I tried it and it seemed to work a little better, however still not quite creamy. I think I just need a little more practice using my hand.

Ill wait for the tabac cream to get here to try using the bowl method again.

Thanks again,
KWood34

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+1 for the bowl. I'm terrible at face lathering, myself. One thing I discovered with bowl lathering is size does indeed matter! I started off with the tiny glass bowl that came with a merker razor set and it was meh. more lather coming over the edges than staying in the bowl or on the brush. then moved up to a shallow coffee mug... better but still not great. I was at the grocer on monday and noticed this big white latte mug staring at me. Took her for a spin when I got home and BAM. Mug full of lather.

Also, try a combination of pressures when you're clepping your lather. I start off kinda pushing the brush into the bottom of the mug and slowly back off until I'm basically whipping it like a merangue. With most soaps (MWF not withstanding) I get stiff glossy peaks in just a couple of minutes.

Another thing, I was thinking... (dangerous, I know). I know it matters when you're shampooing but if your hair is oily/dirty the shampoo doesn't lather as much on the first go around and you use way less shampoo on the second application. My thought is if you have somewhat oily skin before you try to lather on your face, it may not work as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnich67

You said: "a little bit" when referring to soaping the brush. Load that baby up! I also lather directly on my face - load the brush until you have a nice paste, then lather on a wet face for longer than you would think. More, more, and more...:gl:

Jordan

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Yeah, what he said. To be honest, if the paste is hydrated enough, don't worry about thick, foamy lather. The paste will do fine...as long as it's well watered, and it feels good, you're golden.

ive been using the method i read on here somewhere, works fantastic, swirl and pump the brush on the soap, works way better than just swirling vigorously.
gotta have hot water/bowl/brush.
just let bowl sit under hot faucet with brush in it. give it one good shake and do the swirl/pump.

Here is a video I found while I was having lather issues myself. I found that this works pretty well even with something as cheap as williams, and even that much better with a real soap.

YouTube - Quick lather with boar



One thing I would add, this makes toooo much lather to be able to use even in four or five passes (does anyone do that many?), so I squeeze the extra out of mu brush onto the top of my puck. It dries and looks foamy, but works just as well the next time, and you don't waste a ton that way

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KerryWood34

Thats actually exactly what I do. I follow all the steps Ive seen in many lathering instructional videos including mantic's and jockeys' videos. I dont really know what Im doing wrong...

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I'm wondering if it the heat...

Can you try an experiment for me? BOIL some water, then soak your brush in the boiling water, and put a bit on your soap. Squeeze 95% of the water out of the brush, and load up the brush really good. Then swirl it on your cheek for 30seconds, if it is thick, then drizzle a tiny tiny bit of boiling hot water into the base of your brush, and keep swirling...

Let me know what happens...

-Chief

The only thing readily available to me is Williams shaving soap, and I have a cheap wal-mart boar bristle (yes, wal-mart has shaving brushes). I don't use much water, just what I take from the shower and what stays on the brush after a quick shake and go from there. If that doesn't work, I find swearing helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timothy

The only thing readily available to me is Williams shaving soap, and I have a cheap wal-mart boar bristle (yes, wal-mart has shaving brushes). I don't use much water, just what I take from the shower and what stays on the brush after a quick shake and go from there. If that doesn't work, I find swearing helps.

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Well, check out this link and you can get some very good lather for not a lot of money. The Arko shave stick in particular, but the creams are also good. The shave stick doesn't have to be used for face lathering, use a little spatula or the fingernail cleaner on your clippers to shave a few strands of the soap into a bowl and lather up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timothy

yes, wal-mart has shaving brushes

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Yes, I saw that last time I was there. A step in the right direction I think, but if Wally world ever starts selling straights they will probably be the ones on the don't buy list, haha. I almost bought the set just for the bowl and to try the soap, but I could'nt pony up the dough at the time. how is the soap?

(sorry, I promise I'm done hijacking)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by papaface29

I almost bought the set just for the bowl and to try the soap, but I could'nt pony up the dough at the time. how is the soap?

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I don't remember the name, but the one that I saw at megalomart had a bowl that was dark blue on the outside and sort of lime green on the inside with a matching brush.

If we're talking about the same one, I bought the set when I wore out my previous wal*mart brush because I wanted the bowl.

I'd rate the soap as better than Williams, but not by a big margin.

The brush is set with pretty crumby glue. Get your water too hot, and it just falls apart. Plus, it shed a couple of bristles every shave as it was.

Yeah, the brushes do fall apart, it's more of a cheap gift item I think. The Wal Mart soap is OK when they have it. Better than nothing I guess. I have some better stuff on the way. And a better brush. I think using crap makes you better with the good stuff.

Thanks for all the advice! :) Its helped.

I just received my tabac shaving cream and tested its lathering power lol. I didnt shave (will do that tonight), just the lather test. I found out something interesting. The initial advice I received about using a really damp brush and using a bowl to make lather that way didnot really create a creamy lather. however, when the brush was wet and then squeezed to let a lot of water out the drier brush and the cream made an impressively creamy lather and it smells so good. :y:y:y lol

Is this how it normally goes?

wetter brush for soap
drier brush for cream ?

KWood34

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KerryWood34

:y:y:y lol

Is this how it normally goes?

wetter brush for soap
drier brush for cream ?

KWood34

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Ok, when does a sponge absorb more water: dry or wet?

Answer: dry. This is why it is easier to load a brush with a soap that is not drenched in water. You want the brush moist but not drenched in water. Also, for milled soaps that are typically harder, adding a bit of water to the soap helps. This is not necessary but it helps some people. This way, you make the soap softer and therefore, easier to be picked up by the brush. The other way around: dry soap and drenched brush, could be problematic, although not always.

After that, building lather lather should be the same for soaps or creams. You should progressively add water until you reach a point where no more lather can be built regardless of how much swirling you do, this is the peak of the soap. The "peak" is an intrinsic property of each soap/cream. Some soaps/creams are very robust (very insensitive to how much water you add, sort of; glycerin based soaps can be like that), other are a bit more "finicky" with the amount of water that they take and they may require a bit of experimentation. Usually soaps/creams that are very robust are not the best performers because the robustness is obtained at the expense of the performance (this is in general).

Finally, when you reach the peak of the soap, the lather has to be hydrated. PLEASE! do not add water like a madman here ;-), a couple of drops is usually sufficient. If you are lathering on a bowl, you can see big air bubbles mixed in with your lather when you reach this point.

Properly hydrated lather helps in several ways: 1) it ensures that the concentration of chemicals in the soap/cream is correct; drier lathers can irritate your skin because of the chemicals in the soap/cream are at a higher than optimal concentration; 2) it provides a slight excess of water, which contributes to soften your whiskers; and 3) very related to 2, has the optimal glide for the soap, which prevent your razor from skipping and nicking yourself. So, if you experience any of the above problems, you may want to work on your lathering technique. Please note that the cushion of the lather, which is the other important aspect of the lather during a shave, is less sensitive to whether the lather is hydrated or not. If you go overboard in the hydration step, you see beautiful lather that vanishes into thin air when you apply it to the face, this is very common.

I focused on aspects directly related to shaving but lather from good soap/cream should go beyond that as there is a lot more to a shave than merely removing hair.

Al raz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alraz

Ok, when does a sponge absorb more water: dry or wet?

Answer: dry. This is why it is easier to load a brush with a soap that is not drenched in water. You want the brush moist but not drenched in water. Also, for milled soaps that are typically harder, adding a bit of water to the soap helps. This is not necessary but it helps some people. This way, you make the soap softer and therefore, easier to be picked up by the brush. The other way around: dry soap and drenched brush, could be problematic, although not always.

After that, building lather lather should be the same for soaps or creams. You should progressively add water until you reach a point where no more lather can be built regardless of how much swirling you do, this is the peak of the soap. The "peak" is an intrinsic property of each soap/cream. Some soaps/creams are very robust (very insensitive to how much water you add, sort of; glycerin based soaps can be like that), other are a bit more "finicky" with the amount of water that they take and they may require a bit of experimentation. Usually soaps/creams that are very robust are not the best performers because the robustness is obtained at the expense of the performance (this is in general).

Finally, when you reach the peak of the soap, the lather has to be hydrated. PLEASE! do not add water like a madman here ;-), a couple of drops is usually sufficient. If you are lathering on a bowl, you can see big air bubbles mixed in with your lather when you reach this point.

Properly hydrated lather helps in several ways: 1) it ensures that the concentration of chemicals in the soap/cream is correct; drier lathers can irritate your skin because of the chemicals in the soap/cream are at a higher than optimal concentration; 2) it provides a slight excess of water, which contributes to soften your whiskers; and 3) very related to 2, has the optimal glide for the soap, which prevent your razor from skipping and nicking yourself. So, if you experience any of the above problems, you may want to work on your lathering technique. Please note that the cushion of the lather, which is the other important aspect of the lather during a shave, is less sensitive to whether the lather is hydrated or not. If you go overboard in the hydration step, you see beautiful lather that vanishes into thin air when you apply it to the face, this is very common.

I focused on aspects directly related to shaving but lather from good soap/cream should go beyond that as there is a lot more to a shave than merely removing hair.

Al raz.

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Thanks for the advice, but I find the opposite of what you said to be true. I begin my SOAP lather by leaving the brush in hot water for a couple of minutes pumping it in the water to be able to get it to absorb water into the middle part of the brush. Then I take it out of the water and let it drip until it only drips about 1 or 2 drops of water at a time. Then I just load it up in my soap also using a pumping motion (pushing brush up and down on the soap) to get some soap to soak into the middle of the brush. I then proceed to make lather in a bowl and it comes out nice and creamy and thick in less than a minute using this method.

My point was that this method only seems to work with soaps. With my Tabac shaving CREAM it work better when I do the same steps as above but instead of letting the brush drip on its own I give it a few hard squeezes and it is barely damp and then proceed to make lather. I was simply asking if this is the way it normally goes with soaps and creams.

KWood34