Can't get sharp enough

Hi, I'm a noob, although I have been reading this forum for about 6 months and shaving with a straight razor on and off about as long. Let me just say that I LOVE shaving.

I grew up with crap Gilette razors that used to relentlessly razor-burn me. I hated shaving, and would do it about 1 week a month, so I always looked scruffy. and when I did shave, people always asked me why I hadn't shaved.

Desperate for a change, I looked into using a DE razor, and remembered that I had actually inherited my grandfather's 1940s Gilette DE a long time ago. I used that for a while, and it was really very good, but it seemed like the blade wasn't that well aligned, and I cut myself frequently. Then, I got an open comb Merkur Classic 1904 with merkur blades, and got (and still get) the most superb shave I've ever had. My beard is completely eliminated, my skin completely soft, I never get cuts or nicks, and it's really nice.

I wanted a challenge, and straight razors have always appealed to me. So, I bought a TI singing 5/8 from classicshaving.com. I love this razor as an object, and I even like shaving with it, but it's increasingly becoming clear to me that, even though I have occasionally passed the hanging hair test, this razor has never been shaving sharp for me. First, I had a paddle strop with diamond paste on one side, then I got a small Dovo hanging strop. Eventually, I caved and bought a Norton 4k/8k waterstone, and read everything I could read on the Internet, and tried honing.

What is driving me crazy is that I get inconsistent results. With the honing. If I am absolutely even and perfect every time, I can get it sharp enough to pass the hanging hair test, but only sometimes. Same thing after stropping. Sometimes, I pass the test after honing, but not after stropping. Sometimes I fail after honing and pass after stropping. I'm on the verge of buying another razor to see if some razors are just easier to hone than others, or giving up entirely.

I guess it could be my shaving technique too, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Even when the razor feels sharp, and snaps a hair dragged (but not always just draped) over it, when I put it on my face, it doesn't take off my hair unless I go against the grain, and that never ends well. I can get a complete shave after several passes, but then my face is sore enough that it makes me miss my DE and reminds me of the Gilette days.

I know I could send my razor to Lynn, but I want to feel the accomplishment of shaving with the work of my own hands. Plus, I'd probably just dull the razor with my bad stropping technique anyway and then where would I be? Give a man a fish...

I feel silly because everyone asks the same question ("how do I get my razor shaving sharp?"), but just the same I'm hoping for some help that might suit me specifically.

Thanks in advance...:shrug:

Obviously, there's an issue of whether you really know what a keen edge is. So, you're only solution is to have it honed by Lynn once. Then you'll have a guage (standard). It's not like you won't oo rbe able to do it yourself- you just need to calibrate.

You talk a lot about the HHT, but you never tell us how the razor shaved. That's the only real test. I, for one have never been able to get the HHT to work on any razor honed by anyone, yet I had quite a few razors honed by the best, and all of my razors are no shaving sharp.progress was ret

Although you will need to develop an reliable test, forget about the HHT for now and concentrate one the shave. My arded for while because I was using a Feather str8 as the standard for sharpness without knowing it was not achieveable. When i gave that up and got a few razors from the experts, i realized I coud do itand had a realistic standard to wrk against. You're probably doing the same thing by refusing to get a shaving sharp razor as a model.

Hmm, thanks. Okay, I am not refusing to get my razor honed, I just would have liked to be able to do it myself. As for how the razor shaved, the best I can say is that it shaved okay in a couple places and not as well elsewhere. For example, on my cheek with the grain in a variety of different angles and orientations, it will cut some of the hair, but not give me an especially close shave. If I lay the spine on my cheek and go back up very lightly, I can get it close under my sideburns and it feels perfect. If I drag the razor lightly on my face at 20-30% anywhere, I get serious razor burn.

You really need to get your razor sharpened by an expert, so you can eliminate that as a variable. Your problems could be caused by your prep, technique, stropping, or something else. Or maybe it is your honing. But getting a known sharp razor is the first step.

Are you sure your Norton is true? I had major problems honing with mine until I lapped it with 600 grit wet sandpaper on some glass.

What grits do you have on your pasted strop? If it's 0.5 or 0.25 micron, those grits are more for smoothing out a sharp edge than they are for improving the sharpness of a dull edge; you may need something like 1.0 or 3.0 micron. I generally go from 4k -> 8k -> 1M -> 0.5M using a vaguely pyramidish scheme, and that seems to work ok.

Have someone hone your razor for you. Lynn, Joe Chandler or just ask and someone will help you out. Usually a small fee is charged, $15-$20 plus postage.

To some extent your face will toughen up when shaving with a straight. I can remember how a DE would burn my face, now after shaving all the time with a straight a DE doesn't even faze me. Try buying a few razors off of ebay and practice with them and or get a shave ready razor from a member to compare with.
I highly reccomend the later, just so you can tell if it is you or the razor. From then on by all means do it yourself, you have all the tools. PM me and I can point out a few ebay razors to practice your honing skills on. You might find that you could get your best shave with one of them.

Glen

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Originally Posted by russellnyc

Hmm, thanks. Okay, I am not refusing to get my razor honed, I just would have liked to be able to do it myself. As for how the razor shaved, the best I can say is that it shaved okay in a couple places and not as well elsewhere. For example, on my cheek with the grain in a variety of different angles and orientations, it will cut some of the hair, but not give me an especially close shave. If I lay the spine on my cheek and go back up very lightly, I can get it close under my sideburns and it feels perfect. If I drag the razor lightly on my face at 20-30% anywhere, I get serious razor burn.

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Nobody's saying you shouldn't do it yourself...it's admirable you've gone this long and keep trying. The point is you need a standard against which to gauge your results. If you don't have an example, you don't know what you should be shooting for. I got a couple from Lynn, and my honing improved overnight, because I knew what a really well-honed one should feel, and most importantly, shave like.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Nobody's saying you shouldn't do it yourself...it's admirable you've gone this long and keep trying. The point is you need a standard against which to gauge your results. If you don't have an example, you don't know what you should be shooting for. I got a couple from Lynn, and my honing improved overnight, because I knew what a really well-honed one should feel, and most importantly, shave like.

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Joe is preaching the truth...you will not know what sharp is until you get a razor honed by Lynn. As mentioned Joe also can do it and I have heard he can put a real mean edge on a razor as well...or if you want to by a new razor John Crowleys come super sharp as well.

I dont hone yet (soon honest) but all my razors have either been honed by Lynn, Bill, or John Crowley and I know what sharp is...ortherwise I would honestly be clueless.

- send out your good one to get honed. that will give your face a bit of reprieve anyways :)

- get on ebay and buy 1 or 2 cheap junkers THAT DON"T HAVE CHIPPED EDGES for 5$ range. practice on those and compare your work to what you get back on the good razor from whoever honed it for you.

- LESS PRESSURE while you are doing your final laps of honing and definitely while you are stropping. i mean 0 pressure. slow down, and be precise with your stropping. i personally dulled razors for the first week+ of stropping till i fgured out i was screwing it up.

Okay, I do appreciate the advice, I will send the TI out to be sharpened. I see lots of talk about having a profesionally sharpened razor as a point of reference, and I think that's sound advice.

On another note, I went today to get myself professionally shaved at The Art of Shaving, which is near my office in Manhattan. An older Russian man named Boris did the shave, and meticulously prepped me (2 hot towels, oil, lather, more lather), then proceeded to scrape away with a feather. He made 3 passes, one with, one against, and then one consisting of him hacking away at my chin in all directions (at least he confirmed my suspicion that this is a VERY difficult part of my face). He then gave me another hot towel, a masque, a cold towel, aftershave, shaved the back of my neck with the same blade, and then some sort of rosewater spray. He was applying a fair amount of pressure throughout the shave, it seemed, not at all what I expected (I thougth in a perfect shave, the razor glides over your face).

And yet, even though he shaved me somewhat more roughly than I would ever have shaved myself, my face is perfectly comfortable now. The first straight razor shave I ever had, about 8 years ago, left my face a bloody mess.

Anyway, afterwards, I asked him for some pointers, and he showed me how to shave using a feather with a red plastic blank in it. Now this was a really special shave I had received (one I'd love to duplicate for myself over and over), but some of the things he said were clearly against the grain of what is conventional wisdom here.

First off, he said to hold the razor at a 45 degree angle to my face on the cheek. I would assume that if I did that at home I'd end up with a nice red face. Is this possible just because he used disposable blades?

Second, he said not to shave with my left hand, but instead showed me a couple different grips to use with my right.

Third, he showed me how to strop a razor by saying that you had to push the spine really hard into the hanging strop. When he did this, the strop was bowed at about a 30 degree angle. Now his strop was very well broken in, so I assume he uses it. Can this be good for a razor in any universe?

Actually, I take it back. The razor I was shaved with today was a dovo R POL 201 000. Maybe I should just get one of those...

you have a fantastic razor already. send it out to get honed.

pick up some cheapies on ebay and work on honing along with stropping. learn this way. it will take some time, but you finally get to a razor that will shave your arm hairs and then strop it. see if you get it more sharp or more dull. learn by doing again.

you get your good razor back. you have learned to strop lightly and correctly. now you strop your just received honed razor and shave... repeat for a week. the entire time you are still working on honing/stropping on your cheapies. now your GOOD razor needs a touch up, you can do this now since you been practicing with the other razors. so you touch up your good razor, and wah la! you are on your way to razor acquisition disorder!

congrats!

A few things come to my mind:

A TI can take a pretty strong hand at the beginning of the Norton combination pyramid, but definitely ease off to very gentle contact at the end.

A well made bevel like you'll get from Lynn or Joe will be easier to get back to keen once it dulls.

When you are ready to hone up a razor whether it's a practice razor or your TI, work on advancing your technique. Even pressure along the blade is a mistake IMHO. There is no such thing. If you have one level of presssure at the heel it will be different in the middle or at the tip and that will be different yet again if you are using two hands on the blade. Roll the main point of contact from the heel along to the point as you progress along the honing stroke. The 'X' stroke is intended to help facilitate this necessary action. Keep your pressure even throughout this action as each part of the razors edge gets successively focussed on and you should get better results.

X

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Originally Posted by russellnyc

it shaved okay in a couple places and not as well elsewhere. For example, on my cheek with the grain in a variety of different angles and orientations, it will cut some of the hair, but not give me an especially close shave. If I lay the spine on my cheek and go back up very lightly, I can get it close under my sideburns and it feels perfect. If I drag the razor lightly on my face at 20-30% anywhere, I get serious razor burn.

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It still could be a sharpness issue. Whena razor is not sharp enough, it may still shave OK in some places on your face.

I find your description about shaving with the spine touching unusual. It's usually notpossible to shave that way. The spine needs to be raised from the face between one and two spine widths.

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Originally Posted by russellnyc

First off, he said to hold the razor at a 45 degree angle to my face on the cheek. I would assume that if I did that at home I'd end up with a nice red face. Is this possible just because he used disposable blades?

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That's not a good idea. You need to be skilled to use that steep of an angle. The standard wisdom is to use a 30 degree angle, but ti's to your advantage to use a shallower one, if you can. I would say try two spine widths off the face.

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Second, he said not to shave with my left hand, but instead showed me a couple different grips to use with my right.

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That's a matter of personal choice. For example some guys use both hands equally well, whil others can't use the left hand at all.

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Third, he showed me how to strop a razor by saying that you had to push the spine really hard into the hanging strop. When he did this, the strop was bowed at about a 30 degree angle. Now his strop was very well broken in, so I assume he uses it. Can this be good for a razor in any universe?

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The strop should not sg noticeably. If it does you will be rounding off the edge of the razor, dulling it.

I got the razor sharp enough to shave with, I think it was my stropping that was bad to begin with. Of course, the problem now is that I've over-honed it to death trying to get it sharp, and last time I shaved I gave myself a few bad nicks just from touching the razor to my face -- this sounds like a wire edge.

I already contacted Lynn (turns out he and I had already e-mailed long ago when I joined the yahoo group), and am going to send him the TI to see if he can make it right again.

In the meantime, because I have razor acquisition disorder, I couldn't bear to be without a straight razor while sending the TI out, so I bought a Dovo which does appear to have been professionally sharpened and gave me one of the best shaves of my life out of the box. I'm enjoying the experience of the differences between the two. I will say that the TI is very light and maneuverable, which in my case isn't always the best thing. I find the weight of the Dovo steadies my hand and has made me more accurate.

At any rate, I think the TI is more of an "advanced" shaver, and I anticipate that once I grow into it I'll find it to be quite good.

Which Dovo did you buy?

The Bergischer Lowe. I really love shaving with it, and I really hate shaving with the TI. I'm sending it today for honing, if I don't like it after that, it's going to ebay.

Just an update, I've been shaving every day this week with the Bergischer Lowe and am finally experiencing the kind of irritation-free shaves I had finally mastered on my DE before switching. I had tried for 6 bloody and painful months to make that TI work for me, and it wouldn't. Now I get everything done in 2 passes that used to take me an hour with the TI. The Dovo is so much easier to balance and MUCH easier to strop, and actually feels good going over my face. It also makes the "singing" sound the TI never did. It's very addictive, and I wish I could muster just a bit more shadow so I could shave twice a day.

To those of you newbies who can't seem to get it right, persistence is key, and perhaps finding a razor that better suits your style (or making sure the one you have is optimally honed, which I should have done long ago). I get a totally different shave with my grandfather's 1940s Gilette DE than I do with a Merkur 1904, using the exact same Merkur platinum razor blade. The Merkur is clean, smooth, easy and perfect in either direction, and the Gilette is temperamental and requires much more careful control to get the same shave.

Ah, shaving!

The Bergischer Lowe is not just a Dovo. It's a great one, and I love mine too.

I don't know which TI you have, but don't put it down just yet. If it's one of the premiuim models (silver steel), it should be every bit as good as your Dovo, if not better. I've never found one of those TIs that wasn't great. Maybe I'm spoiled mine were almost that way out of the box. I never required more than a quick refresh or just stroppiong.

Let us know how you like the TI after Lynn fixes it up for you.

Thanks for validating my feeling about the Bergischer Lowe! I was wondering if I was being silly. I hope Lynn can fix the TI, I did way too much (bad) honing on that sucker.

One question that I have after rabidly reading all of the guides, manuals and suggestions is the mositened thumb test.

Should you gently glide your thumb along the blade or it is more of a perpenticular, touch-directly movement?

I realize that you are seeking a sense of stickiness, but is it more like a stickiness associated with a sticky spot on a dining table or it is more like the stickiness associated with the Post-It paper pads? Another words, how "grabby" should the blade feel?

-joedy

I'm not the best person to answer this (so more senior honemeisters will correct me if I'm wrong), but I think the razor has to be rubbed lightly in a direction that is perpindicular to the blade (i.e. like you're shaving your thumb with the razor at a 90 degree angle to your face). If you move even a dullish blade along your finger however lightly, it will cut your finger open. The stickiness is hard to describe, it's not like you describe. It just kind of catches over your skin without cutting you as thogh you were "rubbing something the wrong way." Imagine sliding a turntable needle across a record. If you've done this with a dull razor, you'll see that it just slides over your thumb smoothly. As I mentioned below, a really keen singing blade will also make a super high pitched noise if it's sharp (from vibrating on your thumbprints?), whereas a dull razor does not.

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Originally Posted by Joedy

One question that I have after rabidly reading all of the guides, manuals and suggestions is the mositened thumb test.

Should you gently glide your thumb along the blade or it is more of a perpenticular, touch-directly movement?

I realize that you are seeking a sense of stickiness, but is it more like a stickiness associated with a sticky spot on a dining table or it is more like the stickiness associated with the Post-It paper pads? Another words, how "grabby" should the blade feel?

-joedy

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If you glide your thumb along the edge, the only stickiness you'll get is your blood all over the blade. The test is done by lightly sliding your thumb ACROSS the edge at a few places (either end and the middle) along the edge. Your looking for the edge to grab the thumb and move with it. As the razor sharpens up you can also feel a sharp edge forming as it nears keenness. You can calibrate your thumb by practicing with a fresh single edged razor blade.

A dull edge will allow the thumb to slide smoothly across. If you're using the thumbnail test first to decide when to come off the medium hone, the edge will already have some grab at that point. You then want to keep working on the fine hone, testing frequently, and you'll feel the grab increase and the edge sharpening. The thumb test is the only one I know that lets you sense degrees of sharpness. With the HHT it's go- nogo.

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Originally Posted by russellnyc

a really keen singing blade will also make a super high pitched noise if it's sharp (from vibrating on your thumbprints?), whereas a dull razor does not.

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THat's because it's sticking to the thumb and, to free it, you're actually plucking the blade.

I would love to check out your TI, I've been thinking about buying one for a long time. If you'd like it honed just let me know, I would gladly do it just for the chance to see one in person before buying.

My BL feels so light... I hardly ever use it.

Hey, thanks for the offer, I sent it to Lynn last week. It is a beautiful object in person, that's for sure.

Well, let me say very publicly that Lynn's reputation is WELL deserved. The Thiers-Issard returned to me so sharp, it simply wiped my face clean. I had tried so hard to hone that thing, how on earth.... It makes me want to sell my waterstone and never try honing again. Anyway I already sent him 2 other razors to work on. Once he's done I'll have 4 good razors in my rotation.

I will say though, that even beautifully shaving sharp, I think this razor is too small and light. It is far less forgiving than my Bergischer Lowe, which I now know is equally sharp.

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Originally Posted by russellnyc

Well, let me say very publicly that Lynn's reputation is WELL deserved. The Thiers-Issard returned to me so sharp, it simply wiped my face clean. I had tried so hard to hone that thing, how on earth.... It makes me want to sell my waterstone and never try honing again. Anyway I already sent him 2 other razors to work on. Once he's done I'll have 4 good razors in my rotation.

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Russell,

Selling the stones and sending out razors is actually a very viable alternative for lots of guys. Many guys just don't have the time or patience to learn to hone or maybe just not the desire. Nothing wrong with starting with a few shave ready razors and letting Lynn or El or Joe, etc..... work them over once or twice a year. you know it's done right, the price is very fair and it frees up time.
I have sent a few of mine or to both Lynn and El and was always thrilled. I spend enough time making things for other people so rarely have time to really sit and work with my blades. I enjoy the shaving more than the honing so it's an option I plan to use more and more.

Tony

Thanks Tony, I appreciate that. I do feel more than a little defeated. I actually do enjoy honing and taking the time to work the blade, but my results are so terrible, the razor was better off before. I have a set of Wusthof knives in the kitchen, and I'm terrified to use the sharpening steel for fear of completely ruining them!

I think you really put your finger on one thing though, I also love shaving the most, and shaving is even more amazing with a razor that is this perfect. It's like ironing shirts, something I also like to do myself but prefer to pay for -- mostly because in New York, places that iron shirts to perfection are cheap, fast, and ubiquitous.

By the way, I love the strops I bought from you. Aside from being beautiful pieces, they have also kept my razor hanging hair sharp. When will I have to re-paste them?

Russell,
The reply was not just on your behalf either. I get lots of guys who simply want to shave, refresh their razor and let a pro handle the heavy work. No shame in that.........well, a little maybe but it depends who you ask <g>.

As for the re-pasting I would say only when it needs it. It will get black and ugly and keep right on sharpening. I used to do 6 to 10 razors a week on my 4 side and I pasted it every 2 months. For a guy with one to a few razors you may go 6 months or more, maybe way more. When you feel it isn't removing metal it needs a dab more paste.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Selling the stones and sending out razors is actually a very viable alternative for lots of guys.

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In the days when str8 shaving was the only way, there were plenty of men who sent their razors out to be honed.

You can keep your razor shaving sharp indefinitely by refreshing with just a few strokes on a finishing hone whenever the razor starts to pull a little after stropping.

Let me tell you something new and old guys...I have not started honing yet, but I will soon. However for my more expensive and harder to replace razors that lately run in the 150 - 200 range and one I am planning out one that is probably going to runn in the 600.00 range I will be sending them all out to Lynn for the forseable future...there is just no comparison and I know I can trust him more than myself.

No shame in it at all, it just means that you understand you abilities and you value your razors.

Will a Weck Sextoblade with new blade give an approximation of a shave ready straight blade?