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In an unrelated GD razor thread that got sidetracked, RobinK made a statement that many cheap Chinese badger knots were made in sweatshops - this concerns me because he also implied that one of our major retailers TGN is a guilty party - and I happen to own quite a few knots supplied by them.
Hopefully Robin will come along and explain what is behind the statement but in the meantime is anyone else aware that there is any truth behind the claim?
A good friend of mine just spent 2 years of his life, commuting to China every 2 weeks to get a project manufactured.
He says the problem is, everybody is looking to make a buck, or even a few pennies and employees would quit and go across the street to work for a penny more. His biggest problem was quality control, as soon as he left the contractor would sub out the work to another contractor and quality went out the window.
I doubt in this day, there are Dickenson Sweatshops where workers are held prisoner, forced to make products, especially un-skilled products like knots. Just because they don’t have air conditioning, doesn’t make it a sweat shop.
This should turn out to be entertaining gentlemen. I am also curious, from what I understand, most badger hair comes from China. If there is another source it would be great.
I believe it is worse than that Inside a Chinese Sweatshop: "A Life of Fines and Beating" .Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Bob
Conditions in Apple factories have been in the news this past year.
Apple 'failing to protect Chinese factory workers' - BBC News
I would like to hear what types of badger hair was used for brushes historically. Is European and N. American badger fur suitable?
So, first, that article is 15 years old… and comp aired to subsistence sun up to sun down farming…
I thought those NPR, Apple sweatshop reports were proved fake?
It looks like one news report concerning Apple factories, this American Life 2012, was fabricated. But there were several stories from late 2014 and even one from last month saying workers are being forced to work under poor conditions like long stretches with no time off.
I dont know about TGN knots coming from sweatshops but unfortunately they are many in China and India, so its not unreasonable to think that they could come from unethical sources.
Yes, working conditions may have improved over the years but I'll bet they are still nowhere near what would be considered acceptable by western standards. Mind you western working conditions are not what they once were either.
Bob
You know it is all a matter of perspective, there are a lot of jobs, where folks work hard, long hours, no breaks in poor condition and no time off. Hell, I’ve done a few of those, myself and anyone that’s owned their own business, well…
But when we compare rising third world working condition to Union Factory Worker job in the US, who would pay $500 for a knot?
Walmart raises the minimum wage, months later lays off workers, and says the two are un related…yea, right…
Just found this thread... I'd posted earlier in a thread in a similar thread about knots. Think it's relevant here too, so...
I know a lot of Badger knots come from China. There may be various distributors of various badger knot sizes, but have you ever wondered where those distributors actually source theirs from? As soon as anyone mentions China, many people automatically think 'junk'. Given that so many items of every possible description are made there and then distributed worldwide to be resold, you shouldn't think that. I'm a firm believer that you really shouldn't write anything off until you've either tried it, or know for a fact that it doesn't work. Items such as cars that purport to be 'made in England' aren't. Numerous parts are made in various places all over the world (usually the place that can produced them the cheapest) and then maybe assembled in England. I'm sure the same principles apply in US. Anyway, back to shave stuff. If a brush says made in the US, was the knot actually made in the US? Was it assembled in the US?
So, to add a bit more, every badger knot in the UK has been imported as Badger as one of the most protected animals here. There are numerous laws related to them.
Well no, it is not really a matter of perspective but a matter of global/free trade. The western gold standard if you worked for a wage was a 40 hour work week with OT being voluntary, weekends off and 2 weeks vacation a year. We now commonly have people interning for no wage in the slim hope of getting a job at the end of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
The reason countries had duties and tariffs on goods coming in was to protect their own industries which in turn kept the standard of living up because it kept people employed at good paying jobs. Free trade only works well between countries of like standards of living. Once you open the doors to all comers what used to be good paying jobs where the standard of living was high migrate to places with lower standards of living. Those good paying jobs that leave are not entirely replaced by new jobs of similar wages, benefits or hours. It becomes a race to the bottom for wage earners in countries with high standards of living.
This is about the US but applies to most western industrialized countries too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5WReyQlT0
Bob
Geez guys who else is going to manufacture stuff for our dollar stores? Not North America or Europe.. As for knots they probably do come out of sweatshops but so do so many other products we use and take for granted daily. I think in life some people have to suffer so the rest of us don't.. It's not fair but life isn't.. Badgers in rural China are over populated anyways.. I read that a while ago somewhere..
I don't agree with sweat shops like many of you but I'm sure there is one or more product I use daily that comes out of one. Such is life.. Offshoring ... For $$ not quality
O.P the North American badger is a protected species. Not sure about European.
Looking at our state hunting regulations (Missouri) yesterday I was surprised to see there is a season on badgers here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherstockiings
Yep most of the US is open for hunting Badger..
Badger Fur for brushes is mostly from Asian Fur Farms and a few left in Finland, at least that is what my research over the years has yielded...
I haven't researched it at all, but Simpson calls them "Manchurian" because that is where they are harvested AFAIK. I've heard that most knots come from China, or the Far East.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
What I find interesting is the big outfits like Simpson, Plisson, Rooney &c get superior knots. The golden nib, or whoever just do not hold a candle to them. They cannot compare ..... IME.
As far as labor conditions ......... as of 2008 ;
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/bu...pagewanted=all
Well to look at things from a different perspective. Everyone wants quality product, inexpensive prices and fair wages. Obviously we cannot get all that wrapped with a bow on it. We have to shop and decide where we will buy and what of those things is most important to us. Like the rest of life it is a balancing act. There are million of people primarily in Asia that work under terrible conditions producing second rate products for middle class people in developed countries. We all want the best for those people but don't want to pay for it, very few people even look for fair trade items. If we all suddenly decided that that is what we are going to do, there would be millions starving to death, because that is their only choice, slave labour and a meal or no labour and no meal. It's sad but true. I do believe that many manufactures have started to show that they are not involved in sweatshops in order to justify slightly higher prices, and it often works well. We need to migrate how we do business in this global market place in order to effect change for the betterment of all, in all countries. In the end we are but one race.
I will chime in on this thread as I have direct experience with these issues. Until about 4 years ago when I changed jobs I had responsibility for factory compliance with minimum standards such as referenced (i.e. making sure the factory is not a sweatshop). For my entire career I have been involved in international trade compliance.
First, I don't like the term sweatshop as it has a connotation that promotes the activists agenda. Often these reports you see are filled with lots of inflammatory rhetoric. If you remove this rhetoric and look at the facts, often there are little there to discover. The article cited references an NLC report. I will not directly comment on my experience with their reports but I do advise caution. They have an agenda and will issue reports specifically written for their agenda.
I will be the first to admit that I, as a westerner would not want to work in the conditions in some of these factories. However, that is an unfair comparison. Most Chinese factories are staffed by people who come from inland China, they live in dorms at the factory and plan to work for 2-3 years, save as much money as they can and go home. For this reason, most employees want to work the long hours. In fact, one dueling issue that I frequently ran across was working hours. The law in China is an average of 60 hours per week each month. The problem is when employees interviewed for a job they would ask how many hours they would get to work. If they were told less than 80 hours per week they left the interview and went to a factory across the street. The employees wanted to work hours to make as much overtime as possible and get back home with savings. The dorms are crowded and have up to 8 bunk beds in a small room. People just slept there. Would I leave my king size bed and high thread count sheets for this? Not if I can help it. However, I have also been to places where these employees are from. I have seen the huts made from mud brick, using corn stalks thatched for a roof, they burn corn cobs for heat and eat corn mush all winter. No floor and just a mat to sleep. The dorm does not look so bad from this view.
Yes there have been abuses but eventually equilibrium begins to take affect. Normally after Chinese New Year, when employees go home for a few weeks, you expect 25% not to return to the factory. The last year I was in China only 25% did return. Factory wages were increase purely on supply and demand. Employees are able to demand better conditions.
I could go on for a very long time but don't want to drone on unless there are specific questions or concerns. Just know that how you say something and what filler words you use can skew the argument and conditions are often relative.
Finally, for the origin question. It appears that a prepared knot and a shaving brush are imported as the same classification. With such the rules of origin would dictate that the origin is not just where the knot and handle are assembled. If properly declared it would need to be the country where the knot was made from individual hairs. This is my opinion after a quick view of the import rules and is not to be considered legal advise.
Just be thankful no one decided that White Rhino whiskers make the best brushes.
It's the age-old problem with Capitalism: the people who do the work only ever see a tiny fraction of the price of the item - most of the money goes to the middle and top because the wages of the people who do the actual work are considered a "cost", and costs are there to be minimised. That's just good economics.
James.
This article is a reasonable example about how complicated the problem can be. I am not saying that abuses don't happen but it is not always the big American business that is at fault. Some of the things cited are common but with further investigation you find things like:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
The health benefits that employees were shorted - The health and what we would call social security system in China is province based. The migrant worker has pay deducted (like we do for social security) and it goes into a fund for that province. They are migrant workers and when they return to their home province they give up what they paid into the system. Many employees ask the factory to pay them that amount instead of deducting it.
Underage employees. Occasionally you might find someone really young and usually they are using a borrowed id card to get the job. More often than not you find people "underage" because of how you do math. In China it is calculated by year only. So if you are born on Dec 31, on Jan 1 you are though of as 1 year old. Legal age to work is 16. If you do math by day, month, year you often find people 15 years old and 6 months. Underage by our standards but legal by year only.
Here is the duality of the argument. I had an associate who worked for another company who found an underage person working the line in a factory. She was promptly let go by the factory. By the end of the week this associate saw the same girl working the corner by the hotel. She was the main wage earner for her family and they needed to eat. She was not allowed back at the factory so resorted to her only other option. That is what is known as unintended consequences.
The burnt hands or broken fingers. I hope the factory is providing personal protective equipment. If not, they are wrong. I would go into a factory where they cut fabric. Employees were given a metal mesh glove to protect their hands from the cutting blades. Every time when I would walk in and they saw me they reached under the table and put the glove on. When I left, they took it back off. Was easier to work without it on but was very dangerous.
The students working in the summer. There is a government sponsored program where students "learn a skill" over the summer. It is supposed to be like an internship kind of thing. I do not necessarily agree with this practice especially when they just end up working on the line like everyone else but the factory has a waiver for age when using the program.
The biggest issue is that the factories are 51% owned by the government and the government is the bank that funds the factory. So if the government is 51% and allows the factory to break their own laws, how will the American customer change anything?
Needless to say, I am glad that I don't have to do this anymore. Often there is no good answer to the issues.
Every issue has a good answer it's just that folks don't want to hear it for a variety of reasons.
If white rhinos were raised for profit there would be more of them, treated better, fed and housed better than what the wild nature affords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Isn't that what we do with cattle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhaultanker
The post on migrant workers struck a chord with me - Dubai has an indigenous population of about 400k but a regular population of about 1.3million - the vast majority of the guest workers are from the Indian sub-continent working in construction and general labouring roles. They too are housed in compounds with their own shops because they could not possibly afford normal prices for accommodation and other necessities. Nonetheless, they take the work because it pays incomparably better than they could expect at home.
By the way, when the temperature starts creeping up there, the whole peninsula could be classed as a sweatshop.
Crikey! I believe they call that Modern Day Slavery in the Middle-EastQuote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Not sure if the Gulfies or British expats sweat as much in the air-conditioned bubbles.
There are times when people choose to go through some grueling times to get to the prize. When I was a young man I worked a lot in the commercial fishing industry. Living conditions onboard the vessels, and the working conditions were not pleasant. We chose to work at those jobs and under those conditions because we made more money that way, it did not last forever and we were well compensated. When people are backed into a corner and have to live like that or starve is the extreme that most of us are not wanting to see. In the fish plants there were tons of migrant workers and locals who would all do a similar thing for the season. The migrants would cram in many people to a house, and hire a family member to be a support worker and make sure that meals got cooked and laundry done for everyone that was working 16 hour shifts. The Mexicans and the Philippians were very good at figuring out the systems of getting the most people in the house to maximize everyones profits.
That is part of the reason the industrialized western world can't compete in a global free trade economy. Nobody here wants to live like that for any length of time never mind as the norm for a standard of living.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Bob
There are small pockets of industries that still choose this kind of work. It is so alien to most people that they actually make a reality show on TV. I doubt they would do that for your average person working an average job. Deadliest Catch does hit some of the points of working in the commercial fishing industry. There are fish plant workers too and in the agricultural industry I am certain that much of the same exhausts there too. Those who participate for the most part choose to do so, I doubt that many in third world countries get to choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Exactly the point, the difference between choosing to do so for short periods of time and having no alternative as a way of life. That is where the non competitiveness comes in with off shore manufacturing of goods such as the Chinese made badger knots discussed in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Bob
It would impress me a lot if we could find out what a minimum standard of living would be and then implement a tagging system similar to fair trade that would give consumers an opportunity to knowingly pay a little more for products that were made with respect to the standards of living for factory workers. Have it include things like safety standards and fair wages. I would be inclined to pay more knowing products were not made in sweat shops. I do check made in tags on products frequently. That gets a little tough too.
It would be nice if that were possible. I am doubtful when I remember recent news articles concerning the clothing manufacturer Patagonia. Patagonia is what I would consider an industry leader when it comes to ethically sourcing materials, fair labor, and conservation. Especially conservation. But apparently even Patagonia has problems with unethical animal treatment at farms operated by their suppliers and unfair labor practices in factories.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Patagonia Finds “Modern Slavery” in Supply Chain | Outside Online
This type of migrant worker brings in a whole other issue. Migrants within China for example, they can easily travel by train from the central part of China to the coast where all the factories are and find a job. Places like Dubai have no worker population so they import workers. Often there are head hunter type people who go and find these workers. They pay their air fare, finder fee, etc to get them there. The worker would not be able to afford this otherwise. The problem you run into there is that they owe this back, they become indentured and cannot freely leave their job until their debts are repaid. If they do leave they can be arrested for breach of contract. Basically they stole the money that was fronted for them. And how would they get home if they did quit their job?Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Management knows that the employees cannot leave are often tempted to make increasing demands on the workers who can't do anything about it.
Exactly. That's why we like leather goods. Got a second leather roll up from classic shaving in CA. Just beautiful.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I avoid Chinese made items as much as I can, even buying used made in other countries than new Chinese.
I have seen the videos of the Chinese fur farms, and that was enough for me to not buy any fur, or leather product that comes from there. Seeing the animals skinned alive then tossed in a pile to die is just wrong in my opinion.
At what point do we put our own interests/greed/low price dreams aside, and do what is right? We expect others to buy our products at a high price, yet we want the cheapest low cost items we can get....
Before I got interested in straights I had seen a couple of fresh road killed badgers down the road from me. I should have picked them up....
But that's where your going to get badger hair from commercially, plus they are a pest over there, but have you ever been to a chicken farm? It's good to have a moral sense of what's right , but we seem to look the other way at what we use everyday. Personally I haven't found the brush I like in anything else but badger, and I've tryed them all. Tc
The quality in TGN knots dropped the last yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
I have bough from this store many knot all kinds but their black-pure-finest badgers are not as few wears back.
I hesitate to order again for this reason [plus the international shipping rate raised].
Tcridshd, you kind of proved my point. There are other options for badger hair besides China, but they cost more. Yes, I grew up not that far from some of the biggest Foster Farms chicken plants in CA. My main objection is that they do not dispatch the animals before skinning them, so I am choosing not buy products from them. It isn't just fur, or leather products. My truck needed brake pads, and rotors all around. I chose to spend another $120 and got parts that were made over here. I simply do not trust Chinese brake parts to stop my truck when it is a combined weight with a trailer exceeding 20,000#. Being a machinist by trade, I have also seen enough poor quality Chinese made metal items to decide not to use them. All of the other contaminated consumer items that have been sent over here is another reason to buy over here.
We as the consumer hold the power to change the products sold to us through our purchases. As long as we continue to put our cost savings above their working conditions, it will not change. There are businesses in Fabulous Las Vegas Nevada that I will not patronize due to their company policies. I vote with my wallet.
How many knots do you go through a year, and how much more would they be if you supported a local trapper? Would it be worth it to you to spend the extra to help a fellow citizen stay employed? For some people, no. For me, I try to buy as much made in USA as I possibly can.