Why cannot the U.S keep our nose out of this crap?
Kerry is going to Kiev,is talk of a U.S military response,thats just wonderfull,just what we need:(
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Why cannot the U.S keep our nose out of this crap?
Kerry is going to Kiev,is talk of a U.S military response,thats just wonderfull,just what we need:(
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Oh this should be fun lol.
We brewing war against Russia.:gwh:
Yay another cold war!!! Break out your nuke bunkers!
Yup Canada is going to send our SeaKings over there.
another case of grand standing by our fearless leaders who never did anything them selves.
For those who care or want to be caught up to speed - here is an "unfolding of events" - as presented by a British News Source.
Best read by scrolling to the bottom and reading up:
BBC News - Ukraine crisis timeline
Mean while in American News:
Attachment 158343
There will not be any military response and there is little we can do to Russia anymore than they could do nothing to us with Iraq.
Funny, Earcutter-I was thinking the same thing just yesterday after hearing the President's warnings to Russia. We all remember the "red line" warnings to Syria, and look how that's turned out. As much as I'd like to see Assad dragged out of his palace and dealt with in the streets of Damascus, and as much as I think Putin is a posturing idiot, personally, given the problems we currently have domestically, I don't think we ought to get involved in any military entanglements that don't affect us directly.
I am really torn over this one - I mean something like 60% of the population is Russian. Moreover, it's a breakaway state. Of course Russia has an interest in the place! Maybe more than the west did in say... all those places we had vested interests in.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad
I am hesitant and leery when people use the word "invade." When Georgia had it's issues - right or wrong - Russia didn't "stay" afterwards.
Power plays and geopolitics aside, I don't know what to think. I just hope some kind of stability is found. Going to be hard me thinks with such a diverse population.
Exactally,when was it decreed that The U.S has to police the rest of the world,truth be known, as business partners,we need russia more than they need us,Russia has the bulk of the worlds Oil, Mineral deposits, timber.we need to get along.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad
You have a friend in Canada... you needn't worry about Russia. The EU does though... and this IS all about the EU and the US's loyalty to it I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
I would truley hate to see the U.S exploit and destroy Canada like we have our own land.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
The thing I do not understand is,Ukrainians and Russians are all Russians.I am a uke, I have been to russia twice in the past 30 yrs.
Maybe Obama wants to go out with a real Big BANG,we have no business meddling in other countrys affairs when we cannot come close to getting our own house in order
Interesting to note that the Crimea is an autonomous state within the Ukraine. Sevastopol, Crimea's capital, is the home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Makes you wonder if after all the sabre rattling and the dust settles whether the Crimea will separate to be in the Russian sphere of influence. If that does happen will that be enough to mollify the Russians? Lets just hope it does not get past the sabre rattling stage and turn into open warfare.
Bob
Well there's a few things you are talking about in that post but I giggle (not at you) the most when you say we have no right to get involved in others issues when we can't keep our house in shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
When American States were deciding if they needed any civil rights for gay people here at home... Obama was telling Uganda to get it together with respect to their views on homosexuality... all the while, it was the Christian Right in America actually funding the hate in Uganda.
- From Uganda to the U.S. Bible Belt, the proliferation of gay discrimination laws - World - CBC News
Too Funny!!
If it turns into open warfare,Russia will destroy Crimea and the Ukraine in about 2 hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Russians are not to messed with,unlike the U.S, they will go to war to win.
I think that Putin has far too many bodies buried in the Ukraine and that is what this is really about. If the Ukraine gets out of the old boys club someone is going to discover some very big secrets.
Homosexuality amoungst consenting adults, is none of my business,live and let live,I could care less about gay rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
That might be so and the reason I hope it does not turn into open conflict. Remember too that they too had their own Vietnam and that was Afghanistan.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Bob
The wife and I were talking about that the other day too. Seems the Muslims are not the only ones to have people interpret a book in a way to justify hatred. Seems we are blessed with our own Christian Mullahs.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Bob
Big Diff, this will be a war on thier own turfQuote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Yea, that is the problem, the Ukraine is not their own turf any more. They have to cross a border to get there. Just like they had to cross a bridge to leave Afghanistan back to their own turf on the other side. Several of the now independent Stans who were formerly part of the USSR border Afghanistan. It was a short walk home for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Bob
The problem is, I think, that Putin has something to prove with Ukraine and he is the kind of man who digs in when challenged.
My personal view is that Russia's weakest point is it's economy. If anything is to happen I'd like to see Russia's major trading partners bring it to heel with sanctions rather than physical conflict. But I don't even know if that's possible since China I'm sure plays a major role there somewhere - and they've shown in the past how they role when it comes to this kind of thing with Russia.
James.
I guess when it comes to economic sanctions against Russia it could be a bit of a double edged sword. The EU is still pretty dependent on Russia for a lot of its oil and gas.
Bob
Yes sanctions will not work as to many east and west Europe nations have to many interest in Russia then add to that all the Asia Nation that have ties. No sanctions would be followed by enough nations to be effective and may actually make Russia stronger.
Russia may no longer be a super power but it is a large regional power (with a large army) and a world economic power that it can effectively do what it wants as long as it does not directly affect a core eu state, Japan, Us, Canada, aus or china.
As far as Power,I think Russia is on par with the U.S. we can both knock each other out in a heartbeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Castel33
Hopefully our mis guided american leaders do not start another cold war.
Obamba needs to back off,JMO
Guys, this thread has a definite topic. Let's stay on that topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
There is another big difference. The Russian society is not controlled by huggy feely thinking media as much as the US. Russia does not shy away from high body count. Not in enemy casualties and not in their own, and there will be no domestic political backlash if a couple hundred people snuff it. If there is one thing Russians know how to do, it is to die well, according to many historians.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Russia will not attack the US or the EU directly. They have nothing to win.
The former soviet states otoh, they are not afraid to pounce. And the thing is, there is a huge pro russian population there, which is why the country has been a political hotbed for the last decade. Russia was happy enough with yanukovich because he was pro russian. Now there has been a minor revolution and the current leadership of the day is pro EU. Russia has sheltered yanukovich, who still has the support of a large part of the population. Putin is hoping that he can flip the balance again.
The Russian parliament vote is a joke btw. Is there anyone who doubts that Tzar Putin rules Russia with an Iron fist?
One other factor to consider is the historical ties between Russia, Syria, and Iran. I could see this triad/alliance trying to assert its muscle as a regional power in some ways, with Putin as its required egomaniac. Assad already knows that he can slaughter his people wholesale with impunity (and who wants to assist "the rebels" when many of them are apparently Al Qaeda affiliates?). Yet another geopolitical s**t-storm in which there are no easy choices. And if that's not complicated enough, we still have NATO allies in Eastern Europe who are no doubt growing nervous.
I am going to go along with what Bruno said, as a matter of fact I will go one step further. If we look at what Vladmir has done in recent years we will notice that he is almost done putting the bulk of the old Soviet Republic back together either thru economic strangleholds or military intervention.
Just for kicks, as soon as Vlad feels comfortable I would put money that Aberdijan is next thing on the shopping list. Oil and gold fields.
Yesterday evening on the news they called him Tzar Putin. And that is remarkable because Belgian news usually makes a big effort to only report fact and not present opinions or judgement calls. I feel that we are now approaching the point where using jokes or 'nod nod wink wink' to come to terms with the fact that Putin is indeed only paying lip service to parliament or the democratic process and acting like a supreme ruler. He is rebuilding the old soviet empire, but without the crutch of state controlled communism.
This is also imo why western disarmament is a bad idea. Not that I think war is a good idea, but if only one side has a big army, the other side has forever to rely on the armed side playing nice.
Unless you want war, as in the US vs Russia then the first move has to come from the EU, the US might back that move, but the first Economic move must be from the EU...
Money talks and the 1/2 Trillion in trade that the EU does with Russia is a much bigger economic stick then the $38 Billion that the US does.. Besides the internal political strife, and economic woes that US has right now.
On the thought of war, Obama doesn't seem to understand that having the Sec Defense announcing we are downsizing the Military and making drastic cuts to the Defense budget last week, kinda makes his BS sabre rattling pretty much a joke this week ..
That being said I am not so sure that Putin is all so wrong in his actions, my understanding is that over 60% of Ukraine is tied to Russia, Putin made his intentions quite clear when it came to the Crimea, he said what would happen and obviously his idea of drawing a "Red line" has teeth and 16k Russian troops to back it up...
Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine... :shrug:
I get the distinct feeling,that's what's gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
You could most certainly stay out of it, but the cost is that you openly admit that all the big talking about freedom, democracy and such americans are so found of is a big hypocrisy. Can you live with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
The Crimea peninsula became Ukrainian territory only 60 years ago. Before that it became Russian pretty much the same way most of America became USA - the foreigners with the guns exiled the native population from its lands.
This is mostly about Russian internal politics - with poor economy, authoritarian regime, and lack of freedoms Putin has only one thing to sell to the Russians - the glory of a Russian empire. You know, you may be poor and oppressed, but you are part of a great country that can throw its weight around, so you feel a little better about yourself. It certainly beats only being poor and oppressed. It seems to be universal human quality, too - just look around.
Since things tend to look different when its your own country - it is just as simple as having Texas, Oklahoma, and the other red states become South USA and the blue states can become northeast&west USA. After all they seem to have opposing political ideals.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
There are several things that make the current crisis even more scary as most could imagine.
Ukraine is not some far away undeveloped country far away. It is almost in the middle of Europe. People are well educated and this time they just got enough of their corrupted leaders. Social media had a big role with this current Euromaidan uprising.
Now little man Putin is surely aware that the same might happen in Belarus or even Russia. People ain't stupid there either. The current crisis will hit the everyman Russian hard.
So this might be little Vladimirs last change to show his muscles. He so hard wanted to build Eurasian Union. Along with Ukraine heading for EU Putin has witnessed his dream fall into oblivion. It's all or nothing for him.
But it's just not Ukraine. Russia has now forces mobilized on most European countries bordering Russia, icluding my country. Most armies are now on alert, watching closely, trying not to get provoked. Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland has called Nato negotiations, based on 4th article.
Most if not all people living at these corners of the world are deeply concerned what happens if the crisis is to escalate the worst possible way. Guess that people here are well aware what it means to have war on your own soil. It's whole different world than being on commission on some distant place of the world.
We have some personal issues with this too. Most folks here know personally people from Ukraine. We have few family friends who used to live here but moved back to their country back 10 years ago to be with the Euromaidan. For the last few weeks my wifes been almost shocked after reading news and watching those dramatic stories from Kyev uprising.
As someone who works in the military i know what recently is going on here too. People i serve with, mostly boys and girls of 20 yo or so are deeply worried. Nobody wants to believe the worst but ready to take what is coming.
Personally i do not believe in the worst scenario, but if it's Ukraine today then what after that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Yes, many of us are good with those ideas, in fact it would not be a huge surprise to see just that in the not so distant future... When one's central government no longer represents the entire populace then perhaps it is easier to just change...
There are quite a few states that are talking about North/South or East/ West splits...
One that comes to mind is my neighbor to the West, WA state, the huge divide between the Coast, and the rest of the state has the two very different populations at odds...
Most of WA state is by area a rural life style, but the population centers along the coast have the votes and swing the state, so yes it would not surprise me at all to see more then 50 states in my lifetime
Do not believe everything you see from the news.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Only a small minority of all Ukraines wants their home country to split. Federal has a support. Currently there are some protesters and gunmen controlling Crimea. They have made clear to majority that supports Maidan that they better stay indoors and shut up.
We've had an exceptionally soft winter this year, and it looks like spring is already beginning in earnest. However, Russia has got us by the nads through the gas pipeline that is feeding natural gas to most of Western Europe. If they pinch the pipe, we're in a lot of trouble. Trade sanctions will hurt them eventually, but having no gas will hurt us right nowQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Meh. The US army is still bigger than that of the next n countries combined. Let's be honest. The US could downsize quite a bit without losing much if any capabilities as long as no global war breaks out.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
The russian naval bases are right there at crimea. Putin is not going to give up a centimetre of influence. This is a civil war waiting to happen, and unless they split the country or come up with a government that is acceptable to all major parties, there will be conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
