The Cost of War

I found this (see WSJ link below) a remarkable story. Generally speaking, when thinking of the costs of war, I don't think of tallying the years of "after war" costs... moreover, I certainly didn't think of how expensive it really was!

It's a long, but great read that addresses more than just costs. I recommend it.

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Spouses, parents and children of deceased veterans from World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan received $6.7 billion in the 2013 fiscal year that ended Sept. 30. Payments are based on financial need, any disabilities, and whether the veteran's death was tied to military service.

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Veterans' Benefits Live On Long After Bullets Stop - WSJ.com

The financial cost of war means nothing whan this country tottaly ignores the plight of the grunts that served.
Over 200K vietnam vets are homeless and live on the streets.
The mental tole has no price,no dollor amt.

If the politicians (presidents, congressmen, the Pentagon, and the vast military-industrial complex they represent) were required to commit their own children and relatives to war first, we'd have a lot fewer foreign entanglements, I guarantee you. Think what this country could accomplish domestically with all that money!

The costs of war can be somewhat calculated for nations. The price what it costs to all related people is beyond any calculations. No matter win or lose.

Seems the Canadian government aka "The Harper Government" are trying their best to reduce the post Afghanistan costs. Seems they have rejigged the disability pension benefits and made it difficult to get other assistance for things like treatments related to PTSD. They only need you when they need you.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Seems the Canadian government aka "The Harper Government" are trying their best to reduce the post Afghanistan costs. Seems they have rejigged the disability pension benefits and made it difficult to get other assistance for things like treatments related to PTSD. They only need you when they need you.

Bob

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The hypocrisy of yesterday's "Day of Honour" for Afghanistan vets was staggering.

If they were at all truly interested in honouring servicemen and women, then treating them well and fairly upon their return would be a good start. This government loves to wrap itself in military glory whenever it serves its purpose (its use of War of 1812 propaganda, rebranding the party logo to resemble the air force logo, paying lip service to vets, etc.) while at the same time cutting benefits and access to benefits as you said, switching from a life time pension to a lump sum payment for disability, sharing the personal information of vets to make a stand in efforts to discredit them via their personal medical files... it goes on and on.

The next election can't come soon enough.

You couldn't pay me enough to be a soldier...

I am pretty sure that those that do sign up voluntarily though, after they get done doing what they are paid to do, feel undervalued and deserve everything they get and much, much, more. But that's not how it works. You take a job, and you agree to the contract... and Bob's your uncle no matter how much you like or dislike it.

So sure, on an individual basis - many might claim its not enough. But in the aggregate... That's a whole lot oh money!!! A whole lot of money!

When you are drafted however... Well that's a whole other matter.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

The financial cost of war means nothing whan this country tottaly ignores the plight of the grunts that served.
Over 200K vietnam vets are homeless and live on the streets.
The mental tole has no price,no dollor amt.

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You have any links proving that Pixel?

The self-promoting hillbilly arzes that claim they love the men and women serving, then won't look them in the eye when they want a job should be rounded up and sent. The difference is that now, and ever since Korea, those serving came home alone, or in dribs and drabs, not to the WWII tickertapes, but to a place that they didn't know. Today's fakes thanks them for their service, but do little to get them back iinto society, or a job ..

And, there isn't a weblink in the wold that can prove anything, sorry

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

The financial cost of war means nothing whan this country tottaly ignores the plight of the grunts that served.
Over 200K vietnam vets are homeless and live on the streets.
The mental tole has no price,no dollor amt.

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Here is what I found - talking about all Vets.

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Although flawless counts are impossible to come by – the transient nature of homeless populations presents a major difficulty – the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that 57,849 veterans are homeless on any given night.

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National Coalition for Homeless Veterans

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Originally Posted by earcutter

You couldn't pay me enough to be a soldier...

I am pretty sure that those that do sign up voluntarily though, after they get done doing what they are paid to do, feel undervalued and deserve everything they get and much, much, more. But that's not how it works. You take a job, and you agree to the contract... and Bob's your uncle no matter how much you like or dislike it.

So sure, on an individual basis - many might claim its not enough. But in the aggregate... That's a whole lot oh money!!! A whole lot of money!

When you are drafted however... Well that's a whole other matter.




You have any links proving that Pixel?

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Google is your friend earcutter.
You obviously have zero militay experiance, in a time that your country needs you, you do not go into the service for the money.
1966/67 I made $185 per month, when I came back and walked thru the airport in San francisco, my uniform was covered in spit from the protesters.
We all thought we were doing the right thing,WRONG,being paid to defend your country,die for your country,has nothing to do with squat.

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Originally Posted by earcutter

You couldn't pay me enough to be a soldier...

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I do hope at least you thank those in uniform that voluntarily join the military and continue to provide the freedoms you and I enjoy. Different breeds I guess, some people believe their country and way of life are worth fighting and dying for despite the costs.

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Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

I do hope at least you thank those in uniform that voluntarily join the military and continue to provide the freedoms you and I enjoy. Different breeds I guess, some people believe their country and way of like are worth fighting and dying for despite the costs.

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What are you asking me here? Just because I wouldn't ever be a soldier doesn't mean I wouldn't be thankful lol!

Look, just because I am pointing out that I couldn't be paid enough to take that job, shouldn't lead you to jump to conclusions that see you asking if I support the troops or not. This is a simple dollars and cents conversation :)... Well it is to me lol!

Well, drafted or volunteer, you have a contract that does include what benefits you are entitled to after your service is done. Yes those benefits cost a ton of money but they should be there and honoured too. No mistaking that it costs money but imagine how much more it would cost if governments were held to their contractual obligations.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Well, drafted or volunteer, you have a contract that does include what benefits you are entitled to after your service is done. Yes those benefits cost a ton of money but they should be there and honoured too. No mistaking that it costs money but imagine how much more it would cost if governments were held to their contractual obligations.

Bob

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Benifits??? I never used any of them,you ever been to V.A hospital:)

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Originally Posted by BobH

Well, drafted or volunteer, you have a contract that does include what benefits you are entitled to after your service is done. Yes those benefits cost a ton of money but they should be there and honoured too. No mistaking that it costs money but imagine how much more it would cost if governments were held to their contractual obligations.

Bob

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I don't know what is going on in Canada. The article I posted was American based.

And then for many, aside from the draft question, have really little to no other economic choice. Many join the military because they can't afford University, the place they live in has zero jobs, along with zero opportunity, and the only possible chance to achieve any life goals or future whatsoever is the choice of joining up and through that enlistment, getting an education and experience that will take them out of the prospect of a life, to the eyes of a poor, young man or woman, that is already a dead end existence.

It may not actually be being drafted, but when your choices are that or nothing, or worse....many choose that as an honourable path to try to add some meaning to their lives, to provide a purpose and a direction. And we owe it to them as a caring society, to treat with the respect and dignity they deserve first as fellow humans and our brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

And then for many, aside from the draft question, have really little to no other economic choice. Many join the military because they can't afford University, the place they live in has zero jobs, along with zero opportunity, and the only possible chance to achieve any life goals or future whatsoever is the choice of joining up and through that enlistment, getting an education and experience that will take them out of the prospect of a life, to the eyes of a poor, young man or woman, that is already a dead end existence.

It may not actually be being drafted, but when your choices are that or nothing, or worse....many choose that as an honourable path to try to add some meaning to their lives, to provide a purpose and a direction.

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So your saying the military is a welfare program lol!! I wouldn't say that south of the boarder lol!!

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Originally Posted by earcutter

So your saying the military is a welfare program lol!! I wouldn't say that south of the boarder lol!!

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Have a look where most military recruiters go. They don't hang around Harvard, they specifically go to areas where there is low income and low employment and offer two things that are in short supply in those areas, hope and purpose.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Have a look where most military recruiters go. They don't hang around Harvard, they specifically go to areas where there is low income and low employment and offer two things that are in short supply in those areas, hope and purpose.

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Yeah... So does every fast food chain in America. The difference being most fat people aren't paid to eat lol!!

The military has been a welfare program since Alexander rounded up the second sons and headed to India. Them that march off get paid, then laid (pick the meaning) those left behind profit from the industry required to support them.

I'm north of the Canudian border here

But when they come home, those that weren't generals or senators sons, have been treated badly since 1865.

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Yeah... So does every fast food chain in America. The difference being most fat people aren't paid to eat lol!!

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Why derail the convo?? let us hear what you have to say about the cost of war and the military.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Why derail the convo?? let us hear what you have to say about the cost of war and the military.

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Derail the conversation lol?? I began the conversation --- I began it talking about how shockingly expensive wars continue to be after the fact as per the article I posted. I continue to be surprised!

Somehow however, a tax payer marveling at the notion that the initial cost of war is far and away not the last thing to hit the budget, has morphed into people questioning my love for the military lol!

I don't think I have derailed the conversation brother, I am simply responding to others.

Oh!! And correcting some facts incorrectly thrown out there lol :)

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Benifits??? I never used any of them,you ever been to V.A hospital:)

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I rest my case.

Bob

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Originally Posted by earcutter

I don't know what is going on in Canada. The article I posted was American based.

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Yea, I know, just saying it ain't much different here as they are well on the way to cutting the financial strain caused by returning vets. The post war costs are high in any country.

Bob

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Somehow however, a tax payer marveling at the notion that the initial cost of war is far and away not the last thing to hit the budget, has morphed into people questioning my love for the military lol!

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Glad you brought that up as it is not often mentioned in the rush to forget. Never thought you were dissing the serving military personnel.

Bob

Interesting article and discussion,,, but wondering only one thing

WHERE IS MY MOTHER'S MONEY !!!!!!!

Let's see Pops landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day fought through the Ardenes and he wasn't looking for Coticules :p

Not really sure what he was doing in Thule Greenland and Korea but we knew he was there

Went to Viet Nam in 1971 came home in 1972

Retired after 30 years


And got some news,,, Mom, who will turn 94 this coming July gets Nada, zip, nutin, from his 3 wars and 30 years served so ummmmm what gives ?????


Guess Glen is going to be looking through some paperwork when I get home to Colorado in July

Glen

Hope you can get that all sorted out quickly. That is just not right.

Bob

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Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

I do hope at least you thank those in uniform that voluntarily join the military and continue to provide the freedoms you and I enjoy. Different breeds I guess, some people believe their country and way of life are worth fighting and dying for despite the costs.

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+1

I served not for the money, but for the reason's that you stated. I guess some people only do things when it benefits them.

Frank

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Originally Posted by Lakebound

+1

I served not for the money, but for the reason's that you stated. I guess some people only do things when it benefits them.

Frank

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That should read, "I guess all people..."

In a capitalist society all people seek out that which will afford them the most utility. Utility isn't always about cash, it can be measured by lifestyle, safety, patriotism... Whatever.

Hence if a man joins the military for altruistic reasons, his reward for doing so, his utility, comes from altruism... not money. But the point is, joining still provides him a higher level of utility than his next best alternative.

That's all to say that why a man/woman joins the military, short of actually wanting to kill people which many would call a sickness, isn't nearly as important as its made to be unless you can argue that patriotism is a form of brainwashing utilized by "the man" to get people to enroll in spite of their best interests.

Blessed are those who do "believe," but in a capitalist system that isn't drafting, "believe(ing) in your country" isn't a requirement. That's freedom!!

The men and women that serve, deserve any and all we can give them, much more than the ones holding hands out and abusing the system. How is it that the ones that actually provide the freedom that those who didn't serve enjoy. If not for the blood of these men and women of the military, where would we be now? It is a cost for sure , but one that was earned, not given as a charity, I like Bill have not taken a nickel of my benifits because I can still walk and function from the wounds I received , and there are too many who can not. Yet the benifits are still cut. The cost is acceptable. Now take the cost of waste in a system that rewards those who have decided to make welfare their career , do the math on that.
And to Bill thank you. Tc

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

If the politicians (presidents, congressmen, the Pentagon, and the vast military-industrial complex they represent) were required to commit their own children and relatives to war first, we'd have a lot fewer foreign entanglements, I guarantee you. Think what this country could accomplish domestically with all that money!

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Bring back the draft with no deferments!

You will see congress and especially the republicans screaming for the VA to be turned on its head over the current waiting list issue. Yet they are the same ones that constantly underfund the VA claiming it costs too much. So here we are cranking out combat vets and putting them into a healthcare system that is bursting at the seams and underfunded, then bitching to hell and gone when it starts failing! Idiocy.

I will admit I have had some frustrations with my local VA admin in the past but always have been treated well and received good care. I would encourage any vet here to get signed up and stay current, whether you feel that you currently need it or not. The system is not as "friendly" as in the past, major changes were made in 2003 and losing benefits is a possibility now.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Glen

Hope you can get that all sorted out quickly. That is just not right.

Bob

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A search sorted it out rather quickly,,,

Pops was never connected to the VA, he was never wounded nor disabled from Military Service therefore besides 3 wars, Multiple Combat medals, and 30 years of service to his country... She gets nothing..

Of course her "Service" of going to multiple bases across the world, packing up the family, settling the family every 3 years, making due with two children while he was off "Playing War" that all counts for nothing too :(


ps; I wouldn't trade my childhood as a Military Brat for anything, some of my best memories..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

A search sorted it out rather quickly,,,

Pops was never connected to the VA, he was never wounded nor disabled from Military Service therefore besides 3 wars, Multiple Combat medals, and 30 years of service to his country... She gets nothing..

Of course her "Service" of going to multiple bases across the world, packing up the family, settling the family every 3 years, making due with two children while he was off "Playing War" that all counts for nothing too :(


ps; I wouldn't trade my childhood as a Military Brat for anything, some of my best memories..

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Sorry to hear Glen,Sadley your mother probebly did get One very meager benifit.Your dads military death benifit of around $150.00

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

A search sorted it out rather quickly,,,

Pops was never connected to the VA, he was never wounded nor disabled from Military Service therefore besides 3 wars, Multiple Combat medals, and 30 years of service to his country... She gets nothing..

Of course her "Service" of going to multiple bases across the world, packing up the family, settling the family every 3 years, making due with two children while he was off "Playing War" that all counts for nothing too :(


ps; I wouldn't trade my childhood as a Military Brat for anything, some of my best memories..

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That's weird! Your mom gets a pension from him though no??

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Originally Posted by earcutter

That's weird! Your mom gets a pension from him though no??

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No NOTHING at all from the Military,,, That is what I was pointing out, the article is a bit mis-leading, it implies that, but I double checked once he passed away she was cut loose same as many others...

Read the article closer

Also look at the SBP's you will see it is much that same as any other life insurance policy, unless a service member pays into it the surviving spouse gets nothing

Glen

Sorry to hear that. I don't know the US system but had assumed that a military pension had survivor benefits clauses. I know, never assume anything. I still don't think that is right as it stands.

Bob

Normally, in order to get a Pension,one has to be retired from the military after 20 + yrs service

Financially speaking the best way to cut costs is to stop waring. No one in their right mind thinks cutting benefits for those that served, keeping promises that were made to those who volunteered or were dragged into service is the best way to cut spending. I am now pointing a finger at those in charge. We have lost control of the government and so we get what we deserve. Doing what's right is not what will get you elected and THAT is the reason we even have discussions like this. It amazes is me that we all have ideas about what should be done to take care of the symptoms but never look at how to solve the problem at it's core. We all allow this credit card with no limits to be used by those who don't give a hoot who pays the bill. Discussing how the card is used after the expenditures have been made is ridiculous. Yeah we need a war. But not against other countries. Not a war that will produce casualties we will have to care for the rest of their lives. Not a war over resources or profits. We need a war that puts common sense back in our spending. If multinational corporations and banks want to control a certain part of the world, let them pay for it. Not many would stand for these conflicts if they understood the real reason we get into them in the first place. Rant over. God help us.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

No NOTHING at all from the Military,,, That is what I was pointing out, the article is a bit mis-leading, it implies that, but I double checked once he passed away she was cut loose same as many others...

Read the article closer

Also look at the SBP's you will see it is much that same as any other life insurance policy, unless a service member pays into it the surviving spouse gets nothing

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Glen - as soon as I read your post I got on the phone with a lawyer friend who actually works VA disability claims for veterans because something about what you are saying rings sour to me... It did to him as well.

There could be a host of reasons why - like mom taking a buy out or whatever... But the fact is laws change and as unusual as what you are stating today... may not have been unusual in the day. Who knows. But it is unusual.

The first place I would go of course is the Veterans Admin Office out in CO and see what they say. After that, short of a good reason, let me know. I might be able to point you in the right direction in CO as many of my wife's grads end up there!

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Glen - as soon as I read your post I got on the phone with a lawyer friend who actually works VA disability claims for veterans because something about what you are saying rings sour to me... It did to him as well.

There could be a host of reasons why - like mom taking a buy out or whatever... But the fact is laws change and as unusual as what you are stating today... may not have been unusual in the day. Who knows. But it is unusual.

The first place I would go of course is the Veterans Admin Office out in CO and see what they say. After that, short of a good reason, let me know. I might be able to point you in the right direction in CO as many of my wife's grads end up there!

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Sorry... I didn't read the part where you said you double checked. Arg!

Man that's just wrong!