The world I would love to live in.

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Originally Posted by honedright

Therefore you think it appropriate to reject ideas merely because of age, and regardless of merit. "Thou shalt not steal" predates the 18th century by a few years, at least. Are the principles of the Ten Commandments unwanted and inappropriate because they have descended from a long ago age? You may disagree with them, but I'm not buying the logical fallacy that just because an idea is old, it must be obsolete.

Why not list the 18th century ideas you disagree with and argue based on merit, or lack thereof.

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Well some ideas that are old are irrelevant to our current situation while are others are always good rules. If God had a top ten list of most hated sins that would be the Ten Commandments. Funny, He never mentions homosexuality in that list. Why don't we make adultery, lying, not honoring your parents, etc. illegal? I mean clearly those are more important and how you got into God's good graces. Why not make God's priorities your own vs. what you personally think is a big deal. He is all knowing and would have put that in the big ten had it mattered the most to Him, but clearly it did not.

The Christian Bible is quite clear on the subject:


"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination."*(Leviticus 20:13).

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you."(Leviticus 18:22-24).

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."(Romans 1:26-27).

Jude testifies about God's fiery destruction of Sodom for*"sexual immorality":*

"As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."*(Jude 7)

Exactly what type of*"sexual immorality"*and*"strange flesh"*had the Sodomites*"gone after"? It was homosexuality:*

"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."(Genesis 19:4-5)

With that said, I do not believe that it is my job to pass judgement but to love people different than me. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Or, love the sinner but not the sin so to speak.

Frank

That last verse about Sodom is them trying to sleep with angels not men. Fun fact love the sinner hate the sin was spoken by Gandhi. Leviticus also says women should leave town during their menstrual cycle then go through a weird cleansing process... Do you abide that as well? I don't really like debating religion cause I can't change your mind nor you mine, but what I would like to ask is if you have religious beliefs don't try to make them into laws that affect everyone. You can believe and follow your religion all day but give me the freedom not to.

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Originally Posted by aa1192

Well some ideas that are old are irrelevant to our current situation while are others are always good rules. If God had a top ten list of most hated sins that would be the Ten Commandments. Funny, He never mentions homosexuality in that list. Why don't we make adultery, lying, not honoring your parents, etc. illegal? I mean clearly those are more important and how you got into God's good graces. Why not make God's priorities your own vs. what you personally think is a big deal. He is all knowing and would have put that in the big ten had it mattered the most to Him, but clearly it did not.

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If this is an accurate depiction, I guess we'll never know what were the other five. :)

Moses - Ten Commandments - Mel Brooks - YouTube

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Originally Posted by aa1192

That last verse about Sodom is them trying to sleep with angels not men. Fun fact love the sinner hate the sin was spoken by Ghandi. Leviticus also says women should leave town during their menstrual cycle then go through a weird cleansing process... Do you abide that as well? I don't really like debating religion cause I can't change your mind nor you mine, but what I would like to ask is if you have religious beliefs don't try to make them into laws that affect everyone. You can believe and follow your religion all day but give me the freedom not to.

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We are talking about where you claim God spoke nothing about homosexuality. Now you wish to discuss menstrual cycles? Sacred Scripture is believed to be Divinely Inspired by God and thus, the Word of God. Therefore I cited several versus directly dealing with the subject. Do you have proof if what you claim with your Angels story?

You really cannot un-ring the bell when it comes to the influence that Judeo Christian beliefs have had on American laws. Take a good look at our currency as well as inscriptions on most historical landmarks in DC.

Like I stated, I don't care who loves or has sex with who. That's your business. You don't want laws forbidding homosexuality and I don't want that lifestyle shoved in my face 24/7 as part of an indoctrination into making it "normal".

Sounds to me like we're asking for the same thing: To be left alone in our beliefs.

Frank

I'm not to argue about any religion vs moral standards here, but the values we think today as 'good' and morally right, can not be adapted by any single religion (or culture) alone.
Say 10 commands is a good example. All if not most can be found not only from the Bible but Qaran and Gilgamesh as well. Most religiongs, be it monotheistic or pluralistic, share somewhat the same values. And not only religions; such values have been more or less the same even with paganistic natives. Similar values behind different stories.
And from all these religious texts can be found also lessons and teachings that are no 'good' or acceptable to our moral standards. For some reason we ignore them even if they are from the same books that we think as divine and holy.

That is why i don't accept any moral standard just because this or that book says so. I respect those who do but people really need no religion to have moral standards. Those values are much more than just from any religion but rather universal.

I think it's worth noting for people who read the Old Testament very selectively, that it also advocates (at least in the laws of the Levites from the Pentateuch, and to some degree in the Historical Books and the books of the Prophets as well), among many other horrific things: slavery, human genocide, cooking over human feces, death for almost every human sin of the flesh (large and small) that I guarantee every one on this board has committed at least one of at some point in their lives. Read it for yourself if you don't believe me. As a teacher of a Mythology and Religious Literature elective, I have read/still read it quite a bit. My experience is that many "religious" people (present company including Lakebound excepted) have an extremely limited and selective knowledge of it, much of it picked out of context to support a political agenda.

And if that's not enough, look at Matthew's "Sermon on the Mount" (Ch.5-7). In it, Christ preaches almost the opposite message of what passes for "Christianity" in America today (especially where it intersects in a very ugly way with politics). If we follow that sermon, every guy on here who has ever lusted after a woman would have to gouge out his eye, and then we'd all be blind. And all of the very overt "look at me" Christians-I'm looking at you Tim Tebow!-would have to pray privately, not to impress others. Not to mention we'd have to give up our possessions and sell everything we had. I could go on, but I'll spare you.

Long story short, count me among the growing number of conscientious Americans, many of them Christian, who are horrified at many of the attitudes and policies being promoted under the banner of "Christianity" today, and even more afraid that certain elements are achieving successes here and there in their efforts to establish a theocracy. If someone believes a theocracy-ANY theocracy-is a sane way to govern that respects individual rights and freedoms, then I would submit to you that they are woefully ignorant of history. Both the state and religion function best when they function separately. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"-worth quoting also, I think.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I respect my SRP brethren more than I can convey regadless of their beliefs, and usually don't even discuss politics or religion, but that is one issue I feel pretty strongly about. As for people's sexuality, as long as they are adults engaging in whatever with other adults, that is no one else's business. I'll leave you with a quote from John Lennon: "Whatever gets you through the night, that's alright..." Aaron

edit: The older I get, the simpler my worldview and moral/ethical philosophy gets: Respect every living being, and expect the same from them. Whatever gives people the most dignity, and provides the greatest good for the greatest number of people, is what I support. Sounds simple in theory, right?

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Originally Posted by Lakebound

We are talking about where you claim God spoke nothing about homosexuality. Now you wish to discuss menstrual cycles? Sacred Scripture is believed to be Divinely Inspired by God and thus, the Word of God. Therefore I cited several versus directly dealing with the subject. Do you have proof if what you claim with your Angels story?

You really cannot un-ring the bell when it comes to the influence that Judeo Christian beliefs have had on American laws. Take a good look at our currency as well as inscriptions on most historical landmarks in DC.

Like I stated, I don't care who loves or has sex with who. That's your business. You don't want laws forbidding homosexuality and I don't want that lifestyle shoved in my face 24/7 as part of an indoctrination into making it "normal".

Sounds to me like we're asking for the same thing: To be left alone in our beliefs.

Frank

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I never said homosexuality isn't mentioned in the Bible. I said that it was not one of the Ten Commandments, which were God's top ten list of sins. As has already been mentioned there are all sorts of crazy rules in the Old Testament...Why pick some that you'll live by but completely ignore the others? The whole thing about don't wave something in my face 24/7 is a two way street. If that's how you feel, then I am sure you wish the removal of God from the US dollar and pledge of allegiance so it's not being in everyone's face all the time. Homosexuality is natural in that it occurs both in animals and humans; there is long recorded history for many different sexual orientations. Funny thing to me is this: if homosexuality is a sin then it is by choice. I personally think you are either born homosexual, bi, or hetero. If it is a choice/sin then at what point did you decide you weren't going to be homosexual? Is it difficult to fight the urge of being sexually attracted to people of the same sex? I, myself, made no choice, but just hetero from the get go, no odd urges.

Gen. 19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

So yes, I have proof they are angels. I just find a lot of odd stuff in the Bible. The story of Job for example! God, who is all knowing, makes a bet with the Devil about Job. He then kills all of Job's children, financially ruins him, and strikes him with sickness. Job is made to suffer for no reason other than so God can prove a point to the Devil. I mean, God already knows the outcome right?!?!?! How does God make up for this? Job gets new kids, becomes wealthier, and lives a long time. I don't have kids, but I don't think having a new child would replace my dead child.

Do we have free will under God? You may say yes but according to the Bible; no. Exodus 9:12 reads "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses." God made Pharaoh not listen to Moses and then killed a bunch of innocent babies because of that.

I was raised in a very Christian home, attended an uber-Christian School, did plenty of mission trips, and read the Bible a few times. I have a decent working knowledge of the book and can back up my points with scripture. I personally think it is an allegorical book for the most part. I like Jesus though and the message he spread. I hope you do not feel like I am being disrespectful and I 100% support your right to be religious, but as always, everything is a two way street.

Just to finish here with something fun is another great Gandhi quote dealing with this subject of Christianity: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I am taking bets on who will have the last word .. :argue:... a very important thing to some ........ I guess it is the Vince Lombardi philosophy ........ i.e. 'winning is everything' .......... PM for details ....... :deal:

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Yes another basic problem we have ignored. There is no compromise, there is only win or lose. As time goes on this only gets worse.

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Originally Posted by honedright

Why not list the 18th century ideas you disagree with and argue based on merit, or lack thereof.

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One of them would be the right to property when that property happens to be other human beings. Abuse and exploitation of others has long historical precedent, but our modern society has largely moved away from it.

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Originally Posted by honedright

Therefore you think it appropriate to reject ideas merely because of age, and regardless of merit. "Thou shalt not steal" predates the 18th century by a few years, at least. Are the principles of the Ten Commandments unwanted and inappropriate because they have descended from a long ago age? You may disagree with them, but I'm not buying the logical fallacy that just because an idea is old, it must be obsolete.

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When you put words in my mouth and proceed to reject them, I'm done. Obviously you can have a very spirited discussion between you and yourself alone, so I'd just leave you to it even if you chose to use me as a prop.