Bah! News like this makes me sick!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032300284.html

Alcohol and tobacco worse than marijuana and Ecstasy? What is this world coming to :rant:? It seems to me the study is flawed by stating that tobacco and alcohol are more harmful than the afore mentioned drugs. I think part of this has to do with alcohol and tobacco being a lot more commonplace than illicit drugs. If marijuana or ecstasy were legalized and became widely used, as much as tobacco and alcohol, I fear they would have a far more negative impact on society than anything else:cen!

Sorry, just my rant for today, but I remain convinced that drugs are illegal for a GOOD reason.

It's quite a contentious report, but bear in mind the Lancet is very well respected, equivalent to JAMA over on your side. I.e. has been put together by medical profs and peer-reviewed (more importantly!) by similar.

Having completed part of med school some time ago (boy.... we're talking some time ago now) and with a wife who's a GP, our view is sympathetic towards some of the suggestions in this study. It is an impossible argument, but it's not as simple as assuming illicit drugs are more dangerous just by dint of fact that they're illegal. E.g. death due to alcohol and alcohol-related incidents is more common than any other drug, illicit or otherwise.

There is also the social stigma of drug abuse (ruins lives, tears families apart, physical damage, psychological damage, etc.) and you'd be right to point to those factors as why some drugs remain illiegal. But guess what? I believe alcohol has exactly the same social effects on many: ask any alcoholic!

One final question for you, Howard. You say "I remain convinced that drugs are illegal for a GOOD reason." So how do you explain drugs that were illegal, but are no longer illegal. Have they somehow changed in chemical structure in the intervening period? Have humans become impervious to their effects in that time? Are the social outcomes different now?

I am of course referring to alcohol -- prohibition of yesteryear, and its availability and status today.

Ecstacy, no, I can't imagine that has long time effects lesser than alcohol or nicotine. I've read that over time, Ecstacy destroys the brains ability to benefit from endorphins, making it hard for users to get excited about most normal things.

Marijuana, I would go out on a limb here and say that yes, I believe legalizing this would be a good thing. 1st, in the US we have more people in jail than any place on earth per capita. 2nd, people don't have drunk driving accidents when high. In fact, they are hyper aware when driving. 3rd, marijuana doesn't have the beligerant/abusive effect on people when they are high, they actually become more sociable, not less. You rarely see a pot-head want to fight. So, in these ways, I would replace alcohol with marijuana in a heartbeat as a 'replacement' for alcohol which ruins so many lives.

On the downside, aside from the obvious lung issues, it really does a job on your short term memory. Take this from someone who did his fare share in college, and now only sparks up at the odd Steely Dan, Phish or James Taylor concert...

Marijuana has less of a potential for addiction than alcohol or tobacco. This is not to say that you cannot become an addict (I've met a few) but the habit is more difficult to acquire and easier to kick than the other two. Alcohol also stimulates aggressive tendencies more than marijuana or just about any other depressant (which is a kind of a paradox, once you put some thought into it).
Exctacy is extremely dangerous for those who take it. I have seen a guy who popped a knee and kept on dancing and jumping around. They had to get the ambulance for him the next day. However, it's not widely available, so it has less of an impact on the society in general.

I don't know much about ecstasy so I'll refrain from that one but hemp was used by the us and state governments heavily up to and including WWII and even later.

The drug hemp, marijuana, has been proven in properly conducted studies, to have medicinal properties and was used as such for years in the u.s. until the pharmaceutical companies launched a political campaign to ban hemp along side other natural drugs that had already been banned, such as opium, cocaine, etc. all of which had been used in historical apothecary for pain killers, anti-depressants, etc.

The trouble with marijuana, and ANY plant based medicine, is that the companies cannot patent, trademark, or otherwise reserve rights to the plant. They have to try to isolate the part of the plant that does what they want then patent any and all extraction methods. Trouble with that is, not all plants work effectively when reverse-engineered.

Marijuana, as with many plants, is one of nature's prefab chem labs. put the right environment along with the right botanical skills and you get a high quality product that, when reverse engineered and taken apart, doesn't do so hot.

So, the drug companies can't extract part of the plant to do what they want, so they don't waste the R&D and political "donations" to push a product that every other company will be able to duplicate within weeks of it hitting the market. Instead, they worked with other companies to make the world think it's a horrible thing. The logging industry jumped on this band wagon so they could get rid of hemp products cutting in on their market.

Did you know that marijuana isn't carcinogenic until it's burned (smoked)? Did you know that the effects on the motor skills of marijuana are less severe than many alcoholic beverages on the market and while the calming effect lasts longer, the motorskills return faster than with alcohol? Did you know that marijuana can slow down, and in some cases stop, the effects of many auto-immune diseases such as multiple sclerosis and others? Did you know that hemp can be used in rope, paper, clothes, filters, and many other products? Did you know that hemp products are generally sturdier and typically last longer than cotton or wood based products? Did you know that you can grow hemp faster than trees and just as fast as cotton, so it's a much better resource than trees and cotton? Did you know that when marijuana hemp was outlawed, so was non-marijuana hemp?

It's just as illegal to grow hemp that has no THC content as it is to grow marijuana hemp. Permits CAN be obtained to grow hemp for textiles, but it's costly and the constant inspections and excessive rules and regulations make many potential hemp farmers bail out because they can't recognize a return like they should.

Alcohol, on the other hand, can destroy your liver, kidneys, brain, intestines, heart, etc. etc. etc.

I don't use marijuana but I don't think doctors and patients should be denied a viable medicine.

I think recreational drug use of any kind is a bad thing but on the whole, marijuana is no more dangerous a recreational drug than alcohol and it has less deadly side effects.

If the u.s. would tax recreational marijuana like they've done alcohol and cigarettes, and come up with a breath test for pot, they could make a killing on weekend party animals looking to waste their money. Now there's a thought. Fund the war on terror by legalizing and taxing recreational marijuana. :eek:

Another benefit of hemp is the oil extracted from the seeds (regardless of the variety, the seeds do not contain THC). It can be used for food, polymers and biodiesel production.

the medical marijuana is just a stalking horse for the legalize pot groups.
yes it does reduce nausia, but so does pharacutical grade THC suppositories and the dose rate is more controlled. I used to be in the army and a long haul driver and had to deal with stoners. I can tell you that you are NOT a better driver when stoned, like being drunk, you just think you are.
besides, through genetic engineering (selective breeding) todays herb has way more THC in it than the stuff we smoked in the 60s and 70s.

I don't advocate toking and driving. On those rare occasions when I did toke, I made sure I took enough time for the effects of it to wear off (and then some) before I sat down behind the wheel. I am against driving while incapacitated by anything, whether it's a legal drug, an illegal drug, illness, injury, agitated mental state or fatigue.
Marijuana has medicinal properties, but so does just about any chemical. A glass of wine a day's good for your heart, but 3-4 bottles a day will destroy your liver. A cigarette helps get the bowels moving, but smoking a few a day is bad for your heart/lungs. 81mg a of aspirin a day will reduce the risk of heart attacks but 500mg a day will destroy your stomach lining. Therefore, my take on marijuana is that it's a bit less harmful than tobacco/alcohol and should be legalized as a recreational drug.

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Originally Posted by Howard Newell

... I remain convinced that drugs are illegal for a GOOD reason.

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I believe the ONLY reason marijuana became illegal was because the logging industry lobbied hard to have the competition of abundant hemp stocks taken out of the equation. BAD for all of us because we're losing our forests rapidly. I'm sure the pharmaceuticals got on board later t6o keep it so, FUD.

Cigarettes are the worst evil out there. My father has COPD and has been informed the marijuana is fine, but the cigarettes have to go if he doesn't want his condition to worsen.

According to MPP, the greatest harm exhibited by marijuana use is prison.

A glass of beer or wine daily is very good for your health and has been for millennia. Overindulgence is where things get bad.

In determinations about the 'goodness' or 'badness' of a thing we must be sure to detach ourselves from puritanical prejudice and look only to the facts without the fog of emotional attachment. (hell I sound like Spock)

X

I approach the whole marijuana debate from a whole different angle. I used to be a speed freak. I got to speed because I needed something to wind me up after getting stoned. after a while the pot dropped out and the speed was the reason for being. because of the bitch of a time I had getting that particular monkey off my back I take a dim view of recreational pharmaceuticals.
I enjoy an occasional cigar and glass of wine/scotch/martini/beer or vodka, but the key is moderation, but moderation is not something most people practice with anything

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Originally Posted by Howard Newell

I remain convinced that drugs are illegal for a GOOD reason.

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I read that hemp was made illegal in the USA because somebody invented a machine that made the stuff more competitive than cotton and of course all the big money at the time was in cotton. The book was on American history and I cant find it right now. A quick search of goggle brings up allot of conflicting ideas. I'll try and dig the book out and reference it.
Anyway my point is that lot of shit happens for the wrong reasons and common sense is not as common as its made out to be.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

... On those rare occasions when I did toke, I made sure I took enough time for the effects of it to wear off (and then some) before I sat down behind the wheel. ...

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And a good thing too because you don't have to be intoxicated to drive like a wild man. ;)

X

up until very recently, the only use for hemp other than smoking was for rope. now they are finding all sorts of "miracle" uses for the stuff. BTW, hemp shirts for me itch worse than wool...

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Originally Posted by MaduroMan_wcp

BTW, hemp shirts for me itch worse than wool...

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They're getting MUCH better, like silk! I kid you not.

X

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stori...naIllegal.html

Try here for some facts about he many uses for hemp and a good recent history.

BTW Just in case you think my motives are biased I DON'T USE THE STUFF.

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Originally Posted by MaduroMan_wcp

up until very recently, the only use for hemp other than smoking was for rope. now they are finding all sorts of "miracle" uses for the stuff. BTW, hemp shirts for me itch worse than wool...

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Rope, canvas, sails, tents, luggage bags, and on and on and on. Many U.S. battle ships were outfitted with pure hemp sails and anchor & mooring ropes. check out the historical links the other chaps are offering.

Let me preface this with two statements:
1. I've never gotten high, or drunk for that matter. It's against my beliefs to do so.
2. I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread yet, so I may be repeating someone...

That said, I was a political science major in college and I did a lot of research on this subject. (The result was a 90-page paper, if anyone wants to read it.)

I tend to be sympathetic to prohibitionist arguments, and I tried really hard to find a reason why marijuana should be illegal.

What I found was that the U.S. ban, passed in the 1930s, was fueled by anti-Mexican sentiment and newspaper-driven hysteria. Whether or not the drug is harmful was scarcely considered.

I tried to find studies that show that marijuana is either addictive or harmful to your health, and I wasn't able to find any. Marijuana is listed as a Class 1 narcotic, if I remember correctly, along with heroin and cocaine.

I came away from my research with a very cynical view of U.S. policymaking. In my opinion, making marijuana illegal while alcohol and tobacco are legal is hipocrasy.

Just my $0.02,
Josh

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Originally Posted by Howard Newell

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032300284.html

Alcohol and tobacco worse than marijuana and Ecstasy? What is this world coming to :rant:? It seems to me the study is flawed by stating that tobacco and alcohol are more harmful than the afore mentioned drugs. I think part of this has to do with alcohol and tobacco being a lot more commonplace than illicit drugs. If marijuana or ecstasy were legalized and became widely used, as much as tobacco and alcohol, I fear they would have a far more negative impact on society than anything else:cen!

Sorry, just my rant for today, but I remain convinced that drugs are illegal for a GOOD reason.

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The findings were summed up as:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image..._graph_416.gif

I believe they used 19 indices for judging a drug's harm, which included things like pharmacological addictivness, dependency, physical damage to consumer, social effects on families and community, etc.

The argument is so complex I honestly believe it can never be resolved with a common or standard view/ranking. What I hope is that the various states and governments will eventually look at the issues more objectively than in the past. But with decisions based on economics (e.g. hemp) and politics (war on drugs has overtones of previous McCarthy-type witch hunts), that hope is pretty slim.

An interesting sidenote to this is the growing abuse of prescription drugs, many of which are probably just as harmful when abused as many of the drugs on that list.

Reading about the hemp lobby was interesting; I didn't come across too much of that in my research on U.S. policy. The discussion in Congress did touch on hemp use for rope as well as using the seeds in bird feed. But I thought they made some exemptions for that... I'll have to dig through my files again. Most of the testimony focused on the "horrible crimes" committed by riffraff in a marijuana-induced rage...

The debate on the floor of the U.S. Senate lasted 12 minutes. (This is the Senate, hollowed hall of free and open debate.) The bill passed after a senator incorrectly stated that it had the endorsement of the American Medical Association, which in fact opposed the bill.

Sheesh.

Josh

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

riffraff in a marijuana-induced rage...

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If my memory of college serves me right (through the alcohol-induced haze, that is), I don't seem to remember 'rage' being the principal characteristics of 'stoners'. In fact, quite the opposite -- apathy! ;)

Anyone seen the old b/w film Reefer Madness? Now there's an interesting lesson in the use of state propaganda.

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Originally Posted by majurey

Anyone seen the old b/w film Reefer Madness? Now there's an interesting lesson in the use of state propaganda.

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yes we used to get stoned and go see it at a Midnight showing and laugh till our sides ached....:tu

I come from a small ex-mining town that has turned hippie in the last 30 years. Basically Phelps Dodge moved out and the Hippies moved in. That being said, Bisbee AZ is highly populated with pot heads. I know little about the history of its illegalization, but I do know a thing or two about its effects. I'm not a pot smoker, though I did try it once, but most of my family and many of my old friends are regular smokers. Other than it being illegal, I see it being no worse then anything else. I believe moderation really is the key with anything. Anything, and I mean anything, can take over your life. If you make something your god, then you will bow down and submit to it.

I am personally all for the legalization of weed, or the illegalization of alcohol and tobacco. In my opinion one or the other needs to happen because to have one illegal while the others are legal is senseless. I would probably be pretty quick to vote to legalize pot, as it would make a great deal of my family and friend law abiding citizens.

I am personally not a fan of marijuana. Like I said, I tried it once and didn't like it. The smell also gives me a bit of a head ache. It just wasn't my cup of tea. If it were legalized I might try it again, but for now I am staying away from it.

Matt

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Originally Posted by Kentriv

Anything, and I mean anything, can take over your life.
Matt

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Like straight-razor shaving? :roflmao

Josh

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Originally Posted by Kentriv

It just wasn't my cup of tea.
Matt

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There's where you're going wrong Matt... don't most users smoke it? :roflmao

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Like straight-razor shaving? :roflmao

Josh

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Exactly like straight razor shaving. Did you not see my post about the shaving shrine?

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Originally Posted by majurey

There's where you're going wrong Matt... don't most users smoke it? :roflmao

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Funny story. My brother actually made weed tea once. I can't remember exactly, but I know that the effects were not quite the same as smoking it. Baking it, now that is another story.

Matt

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Originally Posted by Kentriv

... My brother actually made weed tea once. I can't remember exactly, but I know that the effects were not quite the same as smoking it. Baking it, now that is another story.

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THC is destroyed by hot water.

X

Marijuana was banned here in the U.K in the 1930's because of pressure from Companies in the U.S.A who had contracts with U.K companies - it was a purely political reason that this happened over here.

Prior to this happening there was long history of Marijuana being to used by being burned in 'holders' in room of 'church' hospitals to help patients with pain.

Some thing no-one has mentioned is that the various 'skunk' indica/sativa crossbreeds being smoked nowadays are between 10 and 20 times stronger than the sativas smoked back in the 60's and before.

making it a far different experience than previous generations ever had.

I did a lot of research on this a few years back when my Wife became addicted to Marijuana .
My conclusion was that to become addicted you had to have the psychological profile to be prone to addiction in any form that includes gambling, alcohol or even tobacco smoking.