Another Language Virus

I'm not sure I can discuss this in a gentlemanly fashion. I'm not sure I can even discuss it coherently.
Disclaimer: I do not speak perfect English.
I do see language as a live organism so to speak, constantly changing. This seems pretty normal to me, but occasionally, what I consider a virus infects the organism, you know, like, infects.
The latest one sends me into spit flying rage and SWMBO is sick of my rants. So I turn to my fellow gents to unload in the hope that someone knows what I am talking about.
Has anyone noticed the how the use of the word had has changed? Logically it's taken some time and now appears to be at critical mass.
Here is an example: Yesterday I had went home around 5:00. I have heard this across socio-economic lines, so let's not infuse the conversation with that one. Well, perhaps there is a cultural origin for this grammatical construction, but the point is that it is becoming widespread, at least to my defective ears.
I feel better now.

My mother, who was a teacher, taught me that often your first impression was your appearance (neat, clean, decently dressed) and the second impression came when you opened your mouth and spoke (or in modern times, wrote something).

I used to think she was being overly critical of me. Then I realized she was just trying to teach me basic social skills and the social "facts of life". Now, when I watch TV news or read what allegedly "professional" journalists write, not to mention the drivel people put in emails or write in business correspondence, I realize she was right. I understand people from different places and different backgrounds may have different standards, and that's fine; however, when people who should be models for our youth (and society at large) get by using bad grammar and "street talk" in their professions, we're headed down a slippery slope.

I'm with you! :tu

Thanks for the thoughts!
I am of an older generation, schooled by menopausal penguins, and find many of the words in US English have changed meaning and usage. I have a developed a distinct aversion to some of the modern writing, even in genre I enjoy. I am now reading mostly authors from my generation, and the generation since.
The use of computers and cell phones has and will change the written language further; to my sadness.
Vise ( work holder) vs vice ( poor habit) is one that gets me every time.
I find that many of the non-US posts are better written in the English language than native ones.
~Richard

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Thanks for the thoughts!
I am of an older generation, schooled by menopausal penguins, and find many of the words in US English have changed meaning and usage. I have a developed a distinct aversion to some of the modern writing, even in genre I enjoy. I am now reading mostly authors from my generation, and the generation since.
The use of computers and cell phones has and will change the written language further; to my sadness.
Vise ( work holder) vs vice ( poor habit) is one that gets me every time.
I find that many of the non-US posts are better written in the English language than native ones.
~Richard

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u b rite .......... :boohoo:

LOL........

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

u b rite .......... :boohoo:

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I'm with you Bill!
The decline of proper spelling, grammar, and general linguistic integrity is a sad thing in modern times.
I hoped with the birth of the internet back in the early 90's that the increased usage of the written, or typed word, would be a good thing for the masses. Spell check, auto correct etc would, through constant correction, improve the general quality of people's language skills.
Then along came acronyms, emoticon's, and abbreviations that nobody could have predicted.
Thing's do not bode well for the future of the Queen's english.
I offer the below public address message. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8

Wat r u guyz goin on about?

Der nuthin wrong wit the youth of today or da way dat they speek.

Haha people that grow up in North America, that were born and went to school here have no excuse for improper grammar and spelling. I graduated high school in 2012. I know.. I know.

It started to notice it happen when Facebook and texting took off a few years before that lets say 2008 when I was 14. I would always text people the way I would speak and I would get replies that seemed like they came from a ghetto. Hard to hold a conversation with someone who can't even spell in English... Who has been studying it for 12 years!!

I'd like to say that hip hop is probably another cause of this language decline. Youth everywhere idolize idiots who think gang banging and hustling coke will get you respect and women. They aren't educated in most cases so kids think why should I? Then give up trying in school. I have seen that happen firsthand to many kids.

A prime example from my everyday life is my girlfriends little brother. He's 18 and has 10 highschool credits. That's what a 14 year old would have.. He's spent the last 4 years of his life listening to rap in his moms basement smoking bowls of "kush." You can't even have a conversation with the kid because he literally knows 15 words and 5 of them are curse words which are used pretty much after every word he says.

It's quite sad that this is what it has come to but I have hope one day something good will influence our youth proper language and education will become a thing to strive for.

In regard to Geezer's comment about non-US members posting in better English than native members, I noticed in high scholarship that exchange students from western Europe spoke English more grammatically correct than we did. I spoke to a German student about it and found out she had been studying English for about ten years. Her English study was centered around the classroom so her exposure to slang and poor English was minimal. I really think the constant exposure to bad English makes is why many Americans struggle with speaking and writing properly.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

It's quite sad that this is what it has come to but I have hope one day something good will influence our youth proper language and education will become a thing to strive for.

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Ending a sentence with a preposition?
:nono:

:w

I know of what you speak!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Ending a sentence with a preposition?
:nono:

:w

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It seems to me that if you go anywhere in the world you will find that the language changes from one area of the country to the other. In England (supposedly the origin of the English language) depending what area your from they speak differently. S Spain I noticed when I was there the words sounded differently. I ask my host (I can't speak S Spanish) and she explained it was common and it really didn't matter because they understood each other. Here in the USA well we have the northerners, southerners, easterners and the westerners. Each speaks the English language just a little different but we understand each other or at least we try. So as long as we all "GET ALONG" what difference does it make. For me I'm kind of country and live in the hills of Tennessee. so I speak fluent Hill Billy.:beer2::beer1:

There has been a global decline in the use of "proper" language.
I work at a university and during a typical week I will interact with students from six or more different countries. The foreign students typically speak and write in proper English, but the writing and speaking of their native tongue is less than proper. I accept the fact that when dealing with a foreign language I may not understand every word exactly and have to get the gist of what is being said, but sometimes due to "improper language" skills on their part I have no clue what they are talking about. Babelfish and google translate often cannot translate their "improper language" either.

I apparently suffer from the same problem. I have been told on several occasions that my Spanish and Italian is spoken more proper than my English. As Leatherstockigns indicated, that is probably caused by lack of exposure to foreign slang and too much exposure to English slang.

As for our American students and their misuse of the English language, I find it appalling. I know my use of English isn't always correct, but I should be able to understand an email written from another American. Sometimes that is not the case and I have to "translate" their English. It really makes me sad if I realize that it is an education major that has sent an incomprehensible message. The future for the proper English language as I know it does not look so bright.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

I have been told on several occasions that my Spanish and Italian is spoken more proper than my English.

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More PROPERLY.

I promise that I will stop now!

:angel:

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Originally Posted by rhensley

It seems to me that if you go anywhere in the world you will find that the language changes from one area of the country to the other. In England (supposedly the origin of the English language) depending what area your from they speak differently. S Spain I noticed when I was there the words sounded differently. I ask my host (I can't speak S Spanish) and she explained it was common and it really didn't matter because they understood each other. Here in the USA well we have the northerners, southerners, easterners and the westerners. Each speaks the English language just a little different but we understand each other or at least we try. So as long as we all "GET ALONG" what difference does it make. For me I'm kind of country and live in the hills of Tennessee. so I speak fluent Hill Billy.:beer2::beer1:

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Roger that...I'm not railing against regional, or cultural differences. I like them. I'm railing against gross negligence.

There are worse offenses like using "that" all the time.

I learned my rules of grammar when I learned Spanish in H.S. Most folks don't have a clue about proper english however languages are not static they evolve. Ever read an original version of "the canterbury tales"?

The worse thing in the world is the word "irregardless". That really chaps my hide.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Ending a sentence with a preposition?
:nono:

:w

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Wasn't aware of that, thanks ! :chapeau

Ending a sentence in a preposition

Ending a Sentence with a Preposition
As a useful guideline, try to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition. (However, as shown later in this section, there are several factors to consider.)

Examples:

That is a situation I have not thought of.
(The word of is a preposition. Writers should avoid ending sentences in prepositions. This is because a preposition should sit before a noun or a pronoun.)
She is a person I cannot cope with.
(The word with is a preposition.)

It is behaviour I will not put up with.
(This example ends in two prepositions: up and with.)

Not a Serious Error
Where possible, you should avoid ending a sentence in a preposition. However, after shuffling the words so that the preposition is not at the end, the re-structured version often sounds contrived and unnatural.

Examples:

That is a situation of which I have not thought.
(This version is grammatically more pure than the one above. In this example, the word of sits before which (a type of pronoun - see lesson Types of Pronouns.)

She is a person with whom I cannot cope.
It is behaviour up with which I will not put.
(This example sounds extremely contrived.)

Reword to Avoid
Often, the best solution is to re-word the sentence.

Examples:

That is a situation I have not considered.
(There are no prepositions in this sentence, and it has the same meaning.)

It is behaviour I will not tolerate.

Leave the Preposition at the End
If the sentence sounds too contrived after it has been reworded, another option is to leave the preposition at the end of the sentence.

There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. (Oscar Wilde)
(This is an example of a sentence that should be left with the preposition at the end.)

I hope no one is taking offense at this thread but I just found this gem:

Attachment 216496

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Ending a sentence with a preposition?
:nono:

:w

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Ron,

For typing all of that out on an iPhone a few minutes before going out with my lady. It had less mistakes then I imagined.

Also , in regards to my preposition at the end of a sentence. I defend with this from Wikipedia. "Preposition stranding was in use long before any English speakers objected to it.[7] Many sources consider it to be acceptable in standard formal English.[8][9] [10] "Great literature from Chaucer to Milton to Shakespeare to the King James version of the Bible was full of so called terminal prepositions."[9]

If the Bible and Shakespeare used these prepositions at the end of a sentence it must be acceptable.

:rofl2:

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Originally Posted by WW243

Roger that...I'm not railing against regional, or cultural differences. I like them. I'm railing against gross negligence.

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I understand. Hopefully I type a message better than I speak the message. I owe any achievements I may have in this area to my teachers in school. They were great.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Ron,

For typing all of that out on an iPhone a few minutes before going out with my lady. It had less mistakes then I imagined.

Also , in regards to my preposition at the end of a sentence. I defend with this from Wikipedia. "Preposition stranding was in use long before any English speakers objected to it.[7] Many sources consider it to be acceptable in standard formal English.[8][9] [10] "Great literature from Chaucer to Milton to Shakespeare to the King James version of the Bible was full of so called terminal prepositions."[9]

If the Bible and Shakespeare used these prepositions at the end of a sentence it must be acceptable.

:rofl2:

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I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds but if your with your lady it would be wise to pay attention to her and not us. :gl:

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Originally Posted by rhensley

I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds but if your with your lady it would be wise to pay attention to her and not us. :gl:

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Yes that's true, we just carved out Halloween pumpkins and she's telling me to get off my phone and help her make the pumpkin seeds. Well I best be going!

Languages are always evolving but currently at a faster pace than we have seen before. What was once gross negligence is now common place and generally accepted as the norm. Just another thing that makes getting older hard to take. The older you get the less kindly you look at any change, good or bad.

Bob

I have maintained US English started its downward spiral in the early 80s with the television show "The Dukes of Hazard".

The show was banned in our house.

I don't recall any particular problem with that show, considering that it was supposed to be taking place in Georgia.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Yes that's true, we just carved out Halloween pumpkins and she's telling me to get off my phone and help her make the pumpkin seeds. Well I best be going!

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What are you going to make the pumpkin seeds do? Or are you fabricating them yourself?

A lot of it is talking as if texting.
And as S0LITARYS0LDIER says.. "15 words and 5 of them are curse words which are used pretty much after every word he says."
I must add, the OVER USE of the slang term "BRO".
A few years ago I was in jail for a week and i swear..all I heard was the word "bro", and, "you know what I'm saying" after everything anyone said. It was really grating on my nerves bad!
Bro.... I can not take that word anymore that is for sure.

or, asked another way, what is "making pumpkin seeds"? From whence do they come? I think this discussion of "seeds" might be over the line of the forum decorum rules.

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Originally Posted by edhewitt

What are you going to make the pumpkin seeds do? Or are you fabricating them yourself?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I don't recall any particular problem with that show, considering that it was supposed to be taking place in Georgia.

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It was the first show that purposely used improper English. AFAIK, shows used proper English before this series.

Hazard is in eastern Kentucky.

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

A few years ago I was in jail for a week and i swear..all I heard was the word "bro", and, "you know what I'm saying" after everything anyone said. It was really grating on my nerves bad!
Bro.... I can not take that word anymore that is for sure.

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Or ......... remember when it was 'dude' ........ hey dude ,,,,,, or DUDE ! ...... I suppose it is preferable than, "Whut up dawg ?"

People are very like monkeys who see and then do likewise. I used to be terribly annoyed when every politician on the planet started saying, "At the end of the day,"...... "let me unpack that "............ now it is ....... "my takeaway on that is"

These things catch on and before you know it they are like mushrooms on cow manure ........ :(

Societal origin: public schools. Good and proper English seems rather foreign to many Americans, doesn't it? Maybe we need a rebirth of assimilation. One commentator says a country is destroyed without language, borders, culture. Funny, those thing have been under attack for the last 60+ years.

Dawg was definitely overused. Not as much as "bro" though. uhggg!!!

I was in line at a store with my daughter, and she asked "why did that guy just call his daughter "bro"? He was in front of us.
All I could say was that he probably was just released out of jail...

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

Bro, I can not take that word anymore that is for sure, you know what I'm saying?

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Here, I fixed it for you :)

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Last edited by Haroldg48; Today at 12:25 PM. Reason: correct grammatical error & autocorrect

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This had me laughing... I don't know why.... :)

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

Dawg was definitely overused. Not as much as "bro" though. uhggg!!!

I was in line at a store with my daughter, and she asked "why did that guy just call his daughter "bro"? He was in front of us.
All I could say was that he probably was just released out of jail...

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I call a lot of people bro...
Not my wife or women as a whole but just about everyone else... :shrug:
I think it is the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu influence...

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Originally Posted by edhewitt

What are you going to make the pumpkin seeds do? Or are you fabricating them yourself?

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We made them ready to eat by boiling and then baking then :) turned out great.

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Originally Posted by rolodave

It was the first show that purposely used improper English. AFAIK, shows used proper English before this series.

Hazard is in eastern Kentucky.

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The Hazzard County for the show was in Georgia. I assume that some of the improper English was the writer's attempts at the southern dialect. I don't recall Bo or Luke or Uncle Jesse speaking poorly. Cooter, and Enis, and Roscoe, and Boss Hogg were caricatures and spoke as such.

Welcome Back Kotter's Sweathogs didn't speak good.

Neither did Lennie or Squiggy.

Neither did Festus.

Neither did Ralph Kramden or Ed Norton.

My phone needs charged. I'm gonna get me a shower.
I done told you once already!
Ugh!
Disclaimer: I do not write our speak prefect English at all.. but I speak well enough, in an articulate way, and with traditional etiquette to make a difference in my life. Many of the opportunities that I've enjoyed have resulted from this.
I have a five year old boy. It is an uphill battle teaching him proper (mostly) English and good manners. My wife and I come from different areas of this country. I'm from California and she is from Indiana. Whenever I am in Indiana the linguistic deficit is noticeable, as well as polite manners. The language is more noticeable. The manners have more to do with little things such as chewing with one's mouth open; I see this less often in California.
I maintain that manners and language are connected.
I'm working with my family to promote the embrace of intellect and positive traditions like etiquette. The culture my wife was razed in is one that is ignorant to the importance of keeping the positive and productive elements of past generations. They seem content to embrace ignorance as a modus operandi.
The tyranny of the masses is not a new idea. In ancient Rome the "mob" was uneducated, poor, and too busy squabbling for bread and distraction to understand what was really going on. Has anything changed except that now every member of the mob has a megaphone?
Change is a good thing as long as its good change. Today there is a growing, uneducated, poor, and apathetic populace and it is a sad situation. Poor language and the destruction of positive tradition is merely symptomatic of a sick culture.
If you don't think there is such thing as poor language then just go and try to communicate more than a MacDonalds order..
Idiocracy is a great movie but one thing to realize is that stupid people don't so much as "breed" stupid people... they raise them. Please note that this does not include those apples that hit the ground rolling to find their way to fertile ground.

I like pointing out that a foul mouth is a sign of a weak mind, or at least a poor vocabulary--d&mm^t!

I have found it interesting that the longer the time since retirement that I am away from the factory working environment the more civilized my language has become. Now if I cuss, it has a direct connection to the item that deserved it rather than a generalized place keeper.
~Richard

Reading, and the love of reading, is the greatest gift we can give ourselves and our children.

Much of the rest, proper English, manners, constructive and critical thought can be opened up like a great, timeless world, different places, times, customs, planets, civilizations, all can be discovered inside a book.