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Okay, here in lies our failure to come to a resolution. You have no definition of life. When there is no finite point at which you say that one thing is alive, and this other thing is not. Based on this, my coffee table could be alive. There will be no agreement in this discussion, because when there is no agreement on the definition of the pivitol term in a discussion, there will be no meaningful resolution.
It was enjoyable. I'm glad you got the opportunity to discuss this with me.;)
I was more talking about being a prion is more complex, not the actual mechanism of the machine that the soul lives in. Like for instance they have to do far more for far less of a result. To gain the same results in terms of actions they would have to complete far more work than a human. Note that I am talking comparativly as one prion would never attain the ratio of work to result in lifetime than a human could create in milliseconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
The same way a poor persons round the world journey would take far more effort(read complexity) for the same result as an effortless journey of a rich person who owns all the latest forms of transportation.
So im not really saying the mechanisms of prions or single celled little things are mechanically more complex, but life as one of them would be more complex.
I cant really speak about the prions mechanisms, aint even sure if a prion is alive, could be some other explaination for them, but it still counts for the single celled organisms which are definitly alive(read houses soul).
The mechanisms could be at a level of complexity of an entire city, and we cant see that small to regocnise whats going on.
Have to keep an open mind, we should afford each other that in these conversations its highly unlikely we would find a person in here with full perfect knowledge.
Best Regards,
Greg
Enter hoglahoo!Quote:
Originally Posted by GregJDS
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...ture1188-a.gif
It's taken us 643 posts to find out that we just simply should have asked Hoglahoo in the first place?!Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
:gaah:
hmm. well, agree to disagree. all a prion does is fold proteins, that's all it can do. it seems to me that humans do a lot more complicated things, but maybe that's just my human arrogance.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregJDS
you are incorrect sir, I very much have a definition for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
I define life as being able to self-replicate and evolve. your coffee table can't make more of itself, unless it's some sort of japanese-robot-table :)
prions can make more of themselves. virii make more of themselves. rna copies itself. sometimes the copies aren't perfect... they could die off, they could live alongside the old one, they could become more successful. I would define these things as being alive, because they can reproduce and evolve. that is my definition (and indeed, an accepted (though not yet universally) definition in the field of biology).
how do you define life?
Ok, so then what does this mean below?Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
You don't claim to know, and yet you define it anyway :cry: Ok that is my cheap shot of the day :oQuote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
More on topic: Maybe it is just me that is getting a little lost. Can the ability to self-replicate and the ability to evolve be present in such a small degree that you would say you are not sure if it is alive or not? Is there such an example?
it is not so cut and dry as the old six-criteria definition. I think my proposed definition is more appropriate, because it takes into account new things that have been learned in the last 50 years, the old definition does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
at the same time, there are varying degrees of self-replicating and evolving behavior, so it's not this razor sharp black line. it's a gray and fuzzy line, if it's a line at all.
so, my definition may not be perfect, because I don't completely know where life begins, but I definitely think it is a BETTER definition.
However, according to your theories, in millions and millions of years, falling into a primordial soup, breaking down into its basic elements, and then somehow forming RNA through the passage of time, my coffee table could become alive. So in essence my coffee table could be, or at least could become, "alive."Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I believe that virii are alive. they are a very basic form of life, but they are alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
As far as RNA copying themselves, are you relying upon this article?
Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme -- Lincoln and Joyce 323 (5918): 1229 -- Science
If so, then this article was just written. Also, the RNA which could miraculously replicate itself was created in a lab. So we created it. That is not life from non-life. I believe that is creation. (in no way am I asserting that we are becoming like God in the ability to create life).
I agree that life is that which is able to replicate itself and evolve. However, there is no evidence that I have ever found, or that anyone has ever brought to my attention, documenting anything that can do these two things, but did not come from a prior version of itself (IE be a product of a prior replication). If you have such evidence, I would love to see it.
Matt
A prion is a protein that has an incorrect tertiary fold pattern. The reason that they are dangerous is that there is no way to denature (i.e. cook or neutralize) them and any other of the same protein that they touch then changes its tertiary fold also.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
Not that this has anything to do with God, but we have to know about them for work, so there you go.
I had studied prions in school, but your definition is somewhat clearer than mine, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by undertakingyou
Also, Virii are wholly dependent upon higher life forms for their survival, and without us, and other "higher" life forms (including dogs, cats, horses, ...), they would die off. So which came first, the chicken or the egg?
If I could just answer this I would make millions, and I would buy every member of SRP a 7 day set!:rock:
Matt
Then get to working on it ya lazy bastage!Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
What he said!!Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
I know this one!! Chicken!
No, wait.... Egg!
No, wait...
Ah, screw it. Sheffield is best. :D
James.