Another sad sign of the times.......

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

And let's not forget that the US is among the leaders in terms of high-end education - there's people at MIT, Stanford, Berkely, Harvard etc that make Socrates look like a moron. The US is still among the go-to places for people all over the world who want to be leaders in their field.

James.

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True, but sadly, I think they are in the minority. The concern is for John or Jane Doe having the skills to compete in the market place and be an informed citizen.

Jefferson believed that would be the strength of our Republic - an enlightened, educated citizenry.

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Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I blame France...

Nah, not really. I do blame the idea that all children are just the very best and most special. Honestly, I think it's all come back full circle. Compare the generation of parents fresh from the Depression. Their motto was "my child will never do without". Fast forward to now where children are taught that everyone has an equal chance and that their circumstances dictate their success. Both generations of children were ingrained with this idea that they were the best and extra special. Their parents gave/give them anything and everything they could/can. This breeds an unfortunate sense of entitlement and paves the way for the blame game. Which leads me to my next point of:

Let's quit blaming this generation or that. Attack the problem head on. Change the whole Hillary Clinton way of thinking that is "the child knows what's best for itself". Tell the village to shove off and take an interest in your own child. As we start to pass this lawsuit happy period, I think we'll see an improvement in the schools. When enough teachers have called bullshit to this fealty game and schools start saying that parents can either make their kids behave, the school can make them behave, or the parents can find another school.

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This goes far beyond Hillary or any generation. In a nutshell, it started downhill when parental discipline was replaced with negotiation, and respect with friendship.

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Originally Posted by mhailey

DON'T SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes me want to cry!!!

Don't listen to him people. SUE, SUE, SUE. it is the way to happiness.

PM me for my card.

Matt

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Isn't suing the great American pastime?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sticky

What azjoe said, +1. Discipline works.

One success story (so far):

This past March my daughter calls me from Arkansas (where she lives). My Grandson (13 then) was not studying, and fighting in school so often that the school said the next time he goes to Juvenile Hall. She says, "He's uncontrollable, do you want him?" I drive to Arkansas and have papers notarized at the local small town courthouse.

Upon arrival back in Indiana I take him to school and give them permission to paddle him w/o asking me first (permission was needed before they could do it). I then, in his presence, gave each of his teachers a slip of paper with my phone number and instructions to call me regarding any problem whatsoever. So far, they have only called me 3 times. None of those calls were in the last 6 months. His grades went from C-F to A-C. His ability to read has increased exponentially, in 10 months he has went from "See Spot run" to adult level science fiction novels.

No, I do not paddle him myself (although I would not hesitate to). I use the exact same discipline methods that the U.S. Armed Forces use on all new recruits. Many recruits are, in fact, minors. My methods are therefore IMO "government approved". Works great. (He can also now do 4 times as many pull-ups and push-ups than anyone else in his class)

Get involved, it doesn't take much extra time... The results can be astounding.

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My mom did that. Even back then the teachers looked at her like she had two heads. We rarely got spanked...instead, she used restriction: "Well, since you have a smart mouth, you won't be going to <insert desirable kid location here>! And since you know have free time, let me introduce you to Mr. Brush and Mr. Paint Can...the garage is that way..."

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Originally Posted by Quick Orange

Whoa, whoa, hey now. I just got my hones- I'm not ready for jail just yet.

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ooohhh and we'll got hones too :p I call dibbs on any y/g QO may have!

in any case i sometimes think that with globalizing economy things like this nation is is better than that other nation will have less meaning.

as far as when things have become worse friends of mine emigrated to US in the early nineties. their 2-nd grade child got to go to US school for one term after which was promptly shipped back home to live with his grandparents and go to school there as the US education was terrible. they couldn't afford to send him to private school and despite him just learning english he was beyond the 3rd grade level in english and math. of course, my country's educational system has deteriorated as some new 'american' methods have been introduced (we've got to be modern now).

but yes, i agree it's parents' responsibility to discipline their kids and let the school do its part too, instead of trying to prevent that. of course, few kids may need special treatment and as the society evolves some abnormal cases are recognized as special conditions that need to be handled differently than they have traditionally been handled. unfortunately there's always the temptation for the parents/children to put the blame on an exception, rather than recognize it for what it is - lack or discipline, laziness or just plain intellectual deficiency.

i have seen some of the US educational system and it is often ridiculous. university students are given extra time to complete tests, because they think they are 'special', or to be more correct, because they can convince a doctor to sign a note that they are 'special'. I personally see very little value in this - if you can't compete in certain activity, you should just find something else that you are good at.