http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player...ness&209&&&new
Anyone care to comment?
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player...ness&209&&&new
Anyone care to comment?
its not working.
Thats funny, its working for me.
Gotta agree with Doc I can't get it to load either I even tried just using the Addy and not the link....:nono:
Let me try againhttp://www.foxnews.com/video2/player...ness&209&&&new
I couldn't get it to work in either Firefox or IE. Oh well.
Wayne
Nothin' on either link for me either. But really, Fox News? Could you find a less reputable mainstream news source?
Here's the link where I found the story: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news...nst_Vento.html
Ill tell you what.....
GOOD FOR HIM
Its funny that this is the only country where your expected to learn everyone elses language at the behest of those that come here to live.
I lived on the border..and can tell you...that while eveyrone expected you to speak spanish in America....You never expected or were suprised when no one spoke english in Mexico.
I'm glad you approve Sir!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kantian Pragmatist
Thank you Denmason!
I agree in principle. I get irritated when I come across a person that has lived in Canada for 20 years and hasn't developed even a basic proficiency in English or French.
The only problem I have with posting those signs comes from dealing with tourists. If I spoke the language of every country I visited, I'd speak French, German, Hungarian, Czech and Italian, in addition to Serbian, English and Spanish that I already speak. If every restaurant in France, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic and Italy had such signs posted, I'd have left those countries very hungry.
That is exerciseing your rights. I'm glad he won his case though sorry he had to fight it.
Just because Fox doesn't support your individual view points doesn't mean they aren't reporting the truth...
as for the sign, I fully support him.
I'm tired of having to press 1 for english.
He isn't refusing service to anyone, he's just asking you to use a language that he can understand. There are numerous immigrants here in the US who can use and understand english, but refuse to. Watch the video, he says it all when he states" If you can read the sign, you are speaking English, so what's the problem?"
Either hungry or able to order a burger and a beer in six lanuages. :yQuote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
So let me get this straight-a businessman in an large metropolitan city, which encourages tourism and invites people of many different nationalities to visit and sample its local cuisine, wants to discourage business from those folks who are hungry, and who would like to sample a famous local culinary tradition. Gee--what great business acumen! And I'm just certain this practice has nothing whatsoever to do with nativist sentiments. Nothing at all.
Can't you just image how great it would be if other countries refused to deal with tourists who may not be fluent in that county's native language, especially when it pertains to something as extraneous as...food? I know I speak for the vast majority when I say that if I was visiting a foreign country were they don't speak English , I wouldn't want anyone to extend any courtesies to me if I couldn't ask for a hamburger and fries in their language...Right?
Hooorah for him. I thought he would loose for sure. Finally a ruling with some common sense applied.:y
I have never visited a foreign country that I didn't try to converse in their language. I would never ever expect them to deal with me in my language... that's just plain arrogant. If they happen to know some English and I know some of their language, then so much the better... but who in their right mind would travel to a country without an interpreter if they know absolutely nothing of that countries language?
If the US government insists on spending tax money, I wish they would spend it on tuition assistance for english language classes for immigrants. If the immigrant chooses not to take advantage and learn english, then tough s**t. To do anything else is supporting the US in becoming a multi-language country... hell, they're already printing all government documents in spanish and english. And why just spanish? Doesn't the native languages of the other immigrants count? There are 41 native languages spoken by the varied students in the school district my wife teaches. 41! The schools, by law, have to provide translators for all 41 different languages for parent conferences, etc. if requested. So do the courts, the police, the hospitals, etc. Let me tell you, it's costly... much more costly that providing some aid to language classes. I just don't get why anyone thinks that it's our societal responsibility to speak our immigrants languages instead of asking them to speak ours!
Incidentally, when I am asked to press 1 for english, I press 0 for operator... and then tell them nicely that I am offended by their prompt... that our language is english and if they want to support another language then ask that person to press 1. And if 0 doesn't get me the operator I just wait on the line, and if that doesn't get me the operator, I just hang up. .. and if I hang up they've either lost my business, or they'll call me and then I'll tell them why I couldn't reach them.
He did not refuse nor has he suggested that he might refuse service to anyone who didn't speak english, he simply stated that when they are extremely busy, and there isn't time to interpret a language they don't understand, you are more likely to get your order messed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
He said they will do their best with the picture menu he has provided, but English is highly encouraged, as it is the National language.
If you don't speak english, you won't understand the sign, and therefore won't be offended by it.
I personally am offended when I go into Walmart, and see all of the signs are in spanish with english subtitles.
The point of his sign is that america is an english speaking country, and if you're going to stay you need to learn our language. We can't all afford to provide interpretors. If I had to interpret for everybody who wanted a razor honed, I wouldn't be honing razors... :shrug:
If I decide to order a Livi razor, I'll be responsible for the interpretation.
If I go to france to order razors, be assured I will at least know a few of the basics like how to order food, or find a hotel before I go, and i will find out if they can provide a translator before I go, if not, I will bring one.
This is the USA. Habla ingles o Sal!
Well, the US has never declared a language, so anyone saying you have to speak English is kinda off base...there were a lot of people here long before anyone who spoke English, and I doubt anyone would bother to learn their language. Besides, Vespucci was Italian, Columbus was Latin, and you have to jump ahead another 100 years to find the first English settlers.
That being said, this was a Philly CheeseSteak stand. Not really the most difficult thing to order. I doubt I'd have any problem going into Mexico
and getting a taco. And, as far as it being discrimination, I've gone to several restaurants in NYC where I couldn't read a word on the menu, and it would have to be translated from Italian (which I might be able to fake) or Japanese (which might as well have been Martian). I didn't throw a fit, and neither did the wait staff who had to explain everything to me...so is that any different than a short order place, just 'cause it deals with more traffic? I didn't feel discriminated against, and I doubt a Mexican guy ordering a Steak Con Queso would have either...that, however, might have changed if I went in and I was asked to leave because I didn't speak Italian, or if they just gave me the first thing that came out of the kitchen.
I think this was a non-issue...someone saw it, thought it would be a good thing to be pissed about, and it blew up into an immigration and decency issue. I know full well my expectation of service would be in jeopardy if I went to Italy or France or Spain...and I wouldn't expect them to bend over to accommodate me...but I'd still expect to be fed at a restaurant, even if I had to sound out the words one at a time.
If I went to Mexico and was hungry, I think I could learn to say hamburger & diet coke in Spanish pretty quick.
bj
English is a dominate language for a reason. We adapt any word from any culture if it suits the occasion and purpose. There is no more efficient or exact language than English. Language is the bond that hold a country together. There is support for this just north of the border. I do not know the present state of affairs in Canada but it was not long ago that there was a movement in Quebec to split from Canada.
Later,
Richard
I'm glad he won that fight. Its about time. The "melting pot" that is always pointed to requires new arrivals to melt - or become one with the rest. It does not mean staying separate or imposing your language. This has always involved learning to speak english and going on to partake in the "American Dream".
Having said that, I'm a native speaker of English and I don't really know the language of ordering a cheesteak there! Cheesteak Wit, wit-out, etc ;)
Jordan
True, a federal law has not been passed to date.... but over half the states have laws essentially making English their official language.;) It's certainly been at issue for a long time... English became part of the requirement for citizenship over 100 years ago, and Presidents have campaigned for it...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonsDanceAlone
"We have room for but one language in this country, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house."... T Roosevelt
Although not in a religious sense, I wonder if this issue is symbolic as America's tower of Babel? As a nation, the US certainly has more than enough difficulty communicating in one language, let alone hundreds.
I guess some see English-only as a form of bigotry and discrimination... others see it as a unifying force. My take is the latter. When I encounter someone who is having difficulty getting along in our country because of their lack of English skill, I assist them in resolving their problem in English, for that prepares them better for their next challenges. It seems to me that those that would assist them in their native tongues are the true bigots. While assistance of that nature seemingly is more efficient in resolving the immediate problem, it certainly does nothing to prepare them for the next challenge they encounter... effectively keeping the non-English speaker at a disadvantage.
This whole argument is funny. The guy was on a local radio show the other day(I live just outside Philly). He's a typical Philly guy.
I just love the people who say "That sign is offensive to non-English speakers!" How'd they find out what the sign says? They had someone tell them, or they had something to translate. If you got that far, you can go the 2 steps further to order a "Steak, with, no onions".
For those of you who say it discourages tourism, I encourage you to come to the city and visit for a weekend. Meet the people. You'll find that the owner of this place embodies the typical Philly attitude.
Need an example? When T.O. got hurt during a football game against the Eagles, the ENTIRE STADIUM stood up and cheered. Not because he gave the thumbs-up or anything, but because HE WAS HURT.
With all of that said, I support this guy. If you can read the sign enough to be offended, you should be able to order in English anyway, so what's the problem? A side note that may not be in that article: the person who originally caused the fuss was a regular at this business. On top of that, the sign was up for nearly 9 months before anyone cared to make a comment on it. What's that tell you?
As I said.. My take is that if you want to live in a country, you need to speak at least one of the official languages. My grandma, who only came over for visits, while she spoke fluent French, knew that English was the dominant language in this part of Ontario, so she took the free ESL courses that local community centres offer.
When I am at a Chinese restaurant in Ontario, I don't write combo numbers down. I ask for a server that speaks English.
However, as a temporary visitor, I don't feel the obligation to learn the official language of every country I visit. I just pass through some countries while driving to another destination or am stuck for a day due to a delayed flight or I could just be vacationing for a week. Under those circumstances, I have absolutely zero moral qualms about using one or more of the languages that I already speak, with a lot of pointing and a gesturing to make a purchase.
Funny how many replies inferred the problem is related to spanish-speaking people. Hmmm...
Aside from that, if the business doesn't turn away people who can't speak english and the sign is only there for people who can, I just can't help wondering exactly how many english speaking customers elect not to speak english and opt to order in another language-what, just for kicks? because they're "too damn lazy" to order in english? I'm sure there must be a gazillion customers who arrogantly order in another language when they could just have easily ordered in english, right.
Look-I'm not in favor of the proprietor of this business being subject to any legal sanctions, just so long as there's no real discrimination involved. But the larger point here is that there's a simmering (boiling over?) undertone about "those people" not speaking "our language", which I find distasteful. Unless someone is over at Geno's Steaks taking a poll, no one has any idea whatsoever whether the people to whom the sign presumably applies are tourists here for a week; or immigrants who just arrived and are in the process of trying to learn english; etc. The sign is rude. When I've traveled abroad I didn't "expect" a waiter or newspaper salesman to talk to me in english, but it was always appreciated when someone who was able to, helped me to buy a newspaper, or order some food, by telling me what the menu said, etc. The business in question is a business-what is the "skin off their nose" if someone who isn't fully conversant in english asks for "fromage" or "queso" on their steak sandwich? It makes perfect business sense if you can sell more cheese steaks by knowing a few key words, as opposed to alienating customers with the kind of attitude exhibited by this particular establishment.
There are way too many people in this country that feel threatened by nothing more than the language some other people utilize. And by the way, it is NOT true to say that 50% of the states have enacted laws making english their official language. And there is nothing in the constitution mandating english as the official language of the US.
Whenever I travel overseas, I always try to speak the local language.
Who am I to demand they speak English when I am in Germany or Spain?
I think this got blown way out of proportion by the PC nazis.
Oh, and for those who are unfamiliar with the location, South Philly is far from being the cultural mecca in Philadelphia.
It's dirty, overcrowded, and you can't find parking anywhere.
They triple park in S. Philly. Not double, TRIPLE.
Besides, only tourists buy into the idea that you have to go there to get a great cheesesteak.
On just about every corner in Philly is either a bar or a pizza shop.
Everything he said is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by F16WarBird
I think this whole thing comes down to one point: People getting offended when someone asks them to speak the primary language of the land. Look, to properly exist in this nation, you NEED to know English. Is it really inappropriate for a proprietor to ask that his customers speak that language? What if none of his staff spoke other languages? He even said in an interview that if you're having trouble they'll help you out.
It seems to me that he is just asking for an effort from those customers who can't speak English, and stating that if you come up and ask for a steak in Spanish or Dutch or Swahili, the workers will just stare back at you like you have 4 heads.
I love how he said that if he lost the argument, he would have boarded up the place. It would have RUINED a huge tourist trap in the city, as Pat's Steaks and Gino's Steaks are known as the place to go for tourists when they visit.
So do we demand all proprietors know basic keywords in every language that they might encounter in order to properly wait on customers who don't care to learn those same few key words in the predominant language of the land?Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
Seems kinda outrageous if you ask me. Your opinion may (in this case, OBVIOUSLY) differ though. We should make everyone speak every language! That way everyone feels welcome! Right?
No "Hmmmm" about it. This is clearly not directed at German (or pick a country) tourists. The sign is expressing frustration about hispanic immigration and encroachment of the Spanish language. This guy is putting out there what a lot of people are thinking, but are afraid to say for fear of being called a bigot....Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
Unless, of course there is a specific back story that I haven't heard - as Kasperitis indicated....
Jordan
...And your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
As I tried to convey--I'm not suggesting forcing/requiring anyone to learn all the languages their potential customers may speak. But what we're really talking about here, at least in my view, is a belligerent attitude by a business towards people who simply want to BUY SOMETHING FROM THAT BUSINESS!!! Although I'm not claiming to know for sure, I surmise that it's largely spanish-speaking customers the sign is intended to apply to (don't think it's likely that too many israelis or egyptians are the ones ordering cheese steaks in south phila). And if I'm right about that, then what we're really talking about is a business that doesn't want to be bothered dealing with, what? 5 or 6 words in spanish that they'd need to know in order to SELL SOMETHING TO A POTENTIAL CUSTOMER?? Like queso=cheese, or seta=mushrooms? We're not talking about a large lexicon when it comes to ordering a cheese steak "wit".
Again, it simply makes good business sense to be able to transact sales with the largest number of customers possible. And that is why you see so many businesses willing to accommodate non-english speaking customers by going to the very minor effort of offering bi-lingual signage-it's GOOD FOR BUSINESS. It MAKES MORE MONEY.
The folks who find this objectionable are not coming from a business perspective. They see it as a threat. I don't. There's no possibility english won't continue to be the non-official, dominant language of this country. We aren't being "taken over" by foreigners. And pressing #1 on a phone menu isn't going to mark the end of the present culture.
My great grandmother came to this country and never learned a word of english. Her children did, however. And the others like her who came to the US and never managed to learn to speak in anything other than her native tongue did not result in her language becoming the dominant language of this Land--last time I checked there weren't too many Yiddish speakers overrunning our culture.
I don't know if it is true or not, but my >50% statement was based on the wikipedia article here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement in the Current Law section. I count 27 states in the list ;). I never said there was a Federal law.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
I happen to live in an area where a significant percentage of my tax dollars are spent accommodating non-english speakers. The current estimates in my state to teach english to non-english speakers in the public schools is estimated to be in excess of $300-million/year. With a population of approximately 6-million, that's a tax assessment of $50 person/year. I'm not going to spend the time to look up the cost to the state government to print all documents and laws in multiple languages, to hire thousands of interpreters, to make signage in multiple languages, etc. Nor will I look up the costs businesses pass on to all consumers to provide signage and advertising printed in multiple languages, hire bi-lingual personnel, etc.
If you can sell more food to tourists speaking as many languages as you can, great. Have a ball. But don't pass those costs on to me as a taxpayer and consumer, please... take it out of your profit. (and yes, I understand I'll be giving up the tax revenue those non-english sales represent... but I think I'll still come out ahead). YMMV
Legally, it appears there's nothing wrong with his bumper sticker. I even have some sympathy to the point he's making. Over a beer, I'd probably have a pretty enjoyable conversation with him. But if I was after a meal and walked up to that window and saw that, I'd turn around and take my custom elsewhere. Why? Because I came to a restaurant to eat, not to have the owner's political view shoved down my throat (sic!;)) in a way that's clearly 'in your face'.
I just want my steak, man. I don't give a flying *&%£ on your views. :shrug:
It shouldn't be considered politics but common courtesy! Each should be courteous and respectful of another, but things have gone a little backwards around here! If you ask me, the owner is only reminding his costomers that a little courtesy and common sense should be used!Quote:
Originally Posted by majurey
Geno's is far from being a restaurant.
It's a shack with outside tables that are bolted to the cement.
However, if you wish to dine al fresco, you can sit down and enjoy the smell of urine, vehicle exhaust, and stale beer.
If you're lucky, you might even spot a bum vomiting in an alley.
I wonder if this is what the native people thought when strange white men started showing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
Being from Philly and spending a lot of years there as well as other places, I fully support him. What previous posts have said about Geno's are correct. It isn't a restaurant in the typical sense of the word. It is more like an oversized NYC hotdog stand. You basically go there and get a cheesesteak. Besides the English argument, Geno's and Pat's (across the street from each other) both have a specific way to order. If you don't order the way they want you to (for the sake of keeping the line moving) they will seriously not serve you or just be mad and rude. It's fully their right. As for tourists, I myself would have at the least a phrase book or dictionary to translate things for myself. I don't see the difficulty in finding the words you need. In addition, I don't think that Geno's would be as rude to a visible "tourist" as they would to a resident of Philadelphia (would be kind of obvious in my opinion) who didn't speak English. It's ridiculous that people have the time to get angry over a sign that the establishment has all the right in the world to display. That is regardless of anyone's stance on the sign.
I think it's good that he won. It seems like a lot of individual sovereignty is lost in our country today. Since it's his business he should be able to require people to speak english if ordering there - though I don't think he required people to speak english seemed more like a request with the language on the sign.
"This is America. When ordering, please speak English."
I think shop owners should also have the right to refuse service to people if they so choose - it's their shop and their wares, why do they have to serve you or sell something to you? Sure they may lose some business, but that's their choice.
I'm not prejudiced or anything, it just seems like our society is so prone to demand that you serve people regardless if they have a bad attitude and are rude and disrespectful.
I also don't think employers should be required to hire certain numbers of minorities or colleges accept certain numbers of minorities, it should be based on the most qualified person regardless of gender or race. Or who the employer chooses to employ, after all it's his business why does he have to employ you?
I understand some of these things are done to prevent discrimination, but we lose some of our own rights in the whole process.
Maybe I'm a little out there, but thats my thoughts on the whole thing.
I agree Mark -- it IS common courtesy to at least try to use the same language as the country you're in. But there are ways and there are ways. This guy might be trying to instill a little courtesy, but in my opinion he's doing it in a most discourteous way!Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
I always try to order or buy in Italian when in Italy, Spanish when in Spain, German when in Germany, French when in France, Greek when in Greece, Portuguese when in Portugal.... (you get the picture), but sometimes that just isn't feasible as a visitor (you ever tried to get your head around Danish?! It's more than hard!). So I would hope that the shop owner or restaurateur might have the courtesy and customer-focus to maybe help me out and speak in English if possible. Is that really so rude of me to hope for as a foreigner in any given country?
Or is that not this guy's point at all? Maybe he's not talking about tourists, maybe he's making a point about immigation in the USA. If so, I go back to my original point -- I don't want his poiltics shoved down my throat at lunchtime, I want his hot dogs shoved down my throat (though from other posts here it reads as if that might not be such a good idea!)