Senator Obama's Memorial day speech!

It doesn't sound conservative, eh?

Tell me: when did this war in Iraq and all the wars like it became a central tenet of conservatism? There is nothing conservative about waging war so nonchalantly against a sovereign nation, despicable as their foreign and domestic policies may be, that poses no threat to a nation's interests or citizens. You were afraid it did of course: that fear has replaced freedom as the common trait of Americans. You were afraid of Islam. You were afraid of WMDs. You were afraid of craft knives. You are afraid of Mexicans taking your jobs. You are afraid of the third world taking your industry. Instead of respecting your Constitution bravely, you cower in the darkness and let Republicans and Democrats pass fearful law after fearful law and sacrifice your sons.

Now conservatives around the world, whether they support this war or not, are tarnished by it; often suffering electoral defeat, plunging our peoples into four or five years of left-wing government and oppression under their bizarre social programs. Spain or Australia, anybody? I blame the US.

In Canada we were fortunate that we had a left-wing government in power when the war drum was being sounded for Iraq. Our conservative movement could not suffer the humiliation of Iraq if it was not in power; by the time general elections came around we had cried fowl on your war and won the general election.

Joke? I don't believe you. Convenient cop-out for an ignorant, racist comment.

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... who practised herbal medicine...

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You're going to tell me, with a straight face, that the Catholic Church tortured and murdered people because they practiced herbal medicine?

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Lumping everyone into the same pot is cowardly.

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Outside of a few libertarians who believe in a isolationist foreign policy, every American believes the United States has a manifest destiny to bugger around with the world. You have different intentions and different methods of torture, but since FDR every Administration has meant the same thing for the rest of us.

The world will continue to be your friend, but I imagine it will be less and less a matter of friendship and more and more a matter of self-interest.

Now I'm really wishing that Taft hadn't spilled the beans way back when and we really had invaded and conquered your sorry northern asses.

Sarcasm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In case you didn't get that either.

Now that you have called me a racist online, I really wish I could meet you in person.

Nothing Exceeds Like Excess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You attitude has pissed me off past the point of reason, You have made no positive contribution to the furtherance of this or any thread on this board nor do I think you capable of any original thought. You have been added to my ignore list.

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Originally Posted by Whiggamore

You're going to tell me, with a straight face, that the Catholic Church tortured and murdered people because they practiced herbal medicine?

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No need to take my words black and white. For lots of 'witches' this was their sin. Unless you think they were actually flying around on broomsticks and dancing naked in the moonlight.

Lots of those convicted were healers and midwives who became suspect for one reason or the other.
Common Misconceptions: The Death Toll
Probable death toll is 40000 to 100000 deaths during the burning times, acording to scientific studies of trial records and historical documents.

Of course this pales in comparison to e.g. what happened during the crusades
Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the first decade, the Crusaders pursed a policy of terror against Muslims and Jews that included mass executions, the throwing of severed heads over besieged cities walls, exhibition and mutilation of naked cadavers, and even cannibalism, as was recorded after the Siege of Maarat.

For some detailed references to christian atrocities, see here:
The Skeptical Review Online - Religion's Death Toll - Author James A. Haught
-- In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: "Kill them all. God will know his own." Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered -- many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice.
-- In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives -- many of them women and children -- taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified."


And these are just some that I picked. Christianity has millions of horrible deaths to its name.
I don't say other religions don't. The various Jihads have a similar death toll (Don't you just love how religion brings out the best in people).

But don't pretend that Christianity has a noble and glorious past, because it hasn't.

Please keep the discussion on point and civil. If the topic becomes a flame war between participants, it will be closed. Remember that above all things, we do try to keep things gentlemanly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Bruno, fair enough. But, you are viewing history through a modern European's eyeglasses which is unfair, at least in my opinion, to the medievals. Prevailing attitudes at the time, such as the concept of spiritual death, need to be considered in our judgements. We have very different expectations of world powers nowadays. Also, using Wikipedia as a source for such a controversial subject, especially one so heavily politicized by Zionists and pan-Arab nationalism, doesn't seem wise.

As a Protestant I held highly negative views towards the crusades and inquisitions of the Catholic Church. But, as I read more scholarly works on the subject I realized that this was indeed, wrong. This realization, more than anything else, led me to the Catholic faith. Our opposition to these holy conflicts and the great multitude of misinformation surrounding them can be understood though: our societies went through the anti-Catholic Protestant Reformation, the anti-Catholic Englightenment, and now an anti-Catholic period of modernism and rather unreasonable accomodation for people who have politicized this issue for their personal gain.

Wildtim, you made the comments, they were ignorant and they were racist. I'm sure you're a nice guy but those comments, sarcastic or not, are not acceptable and do the West and Christendom a serious diservice in more ways than one. How can we win the hearts and minds of these people if we mock their moral values? Moral values that don't differ so much from those of our own forefathers?

We North Americans have no business being on the other side of either the Atlantic or the Pacific, except in peaceful trade.

As for Obama's speech? A good example of two things. First, that Democrats are not so different from Republicans in their glorification of war. Second, that the Democrats are using the Republican machine as an example. A wise choice given the success Republicans have experienced with it.

Amen brother!

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Originally Posted by Bruno

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And these are just some that I picked. Christianity has millions of horrible deaths to its name.

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I don't say other religions don't. The various Jihads have a similar death toll (Don't you just love how religion brings out the best in people).

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But don't pretend that Christianity has a noble and glorious past, because it hasn't.

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I read this thread with interest. Having read a few things in the way of historical european stories etc I know a little bit about so called "Christian history". And I'd like to adress these last points that Bruno made one at a time.

1) So does most any dictator. So does communism, so does democracy so does almost any idea. The problem with most of these though is that in all reality...it's not the IDEA that has the deaths to it's name. It's the leaders at the time. Problem is though...leaders try to justify, and someone who wants to justify needs a BIG idea to support. So what happends? The current leader at the time (pope, ayatollah etc) twist their idea (gospel, Kohran etc) to those things they want the people to hear. It's not religion that's doing these things. It's individuals that are looking for an excuse. If they wouldn't have done it in the name of Christianity, they would have don it under another name.

I personally can't stand that people will blame the idea rather than the man interpreting it at such a weird angle. It's the leaders fault, and that of those who follow him. NOT the fault of the original religion or person instituting it (whether it be Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed or anyone else) THEY had honorable intentions, THEY had an ideaology.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the leaders and followers who pursuid the action at the time.



2) Yes, I DO love how religion brings out the best in people. Many people I've know have had their lives improves substantially because they chose to follow their religion to the best of their knowledge. Once again, the original teachings are ALWAYS given to do good. When people follow them with intelligence and love for their fellow man (which almost every religion teaches) then we would see it a lot more.


3) Actually Christianity DOES have a noble past....admittedly...it's often not very Glorious. There have been SCORES, LEGIONS of christians that have done deeds in the for their fellow men/women because of what they believed. Problem with good deeds though is that they often don't get the high profile that evil deeds get. When someone does something wonderfull everyone claims that it's because he's a wonderfull person....when they do something evil it must have been because they were a Jehova's Witness, Mormon, Muslim, Jew etc.

If you want the ball to roll that way...let it roll both ways.

That'll be it for now from me. I'm not going to get mixed in with politics though....don't follow the US pre-elections enough to throw something into that keg of oil.

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Originally Posted by Whiggamore

Wildtim, you made the comments, they were ignorant and they were racist. I'm sure you're a nice guy but those comments, sarcastic or not, are not acceptable and do the West and Christendom a serious diservice in more ways than one. How can we win the hearts and minds of these people if we mock their moral values? Moral values that don't differ so much from those of our own forefathers?

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The joke I made was found to be both acceptable and funny by any number of people why don't you go condemn and attack some of them.

Why the hell would I want to win the hearts and minds of those people? Once you have grown up a little bit gotten out in the world some, you might just realize that there are some people worth talking to and others who just well aren't.

My forefathers never had as a stated religious principal that they kill everyone who doesn't share their belief system, in fact my forefathers fought several wars just to get away from that type of thought in Europe. I will kill to keep that type of thought from again holding sway in the world, as should any free people on this planet. Because you choose to view the world through Rose colored glasses doesn't mean I am not a Christian. My moral values find fault with their moral values not just mockery. You should understand your Christian denomination has technically been at war with them for the last thousand years.

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Originally Posted by Whiggamore

We North Americans have no business being on the other side of either the Atlantic or the Pacific, except in peaceful trade.

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:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao Tell that to every nation we have ever given aid to or assisted in time of trouble.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao Tell that to every nation we have ever given aid to or assisted in time of trouble.

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I kept thinking it, and Tim said it. Thanks, Tim :tuI haven't heard any news reports lately of anyone refusing aid except for Burma, a model regime.

Hi LX, my point was not to condemn christianity. It - like any religion- acts as an amplifier for human traits.
I do not deny that christianity has done a lot of good too. just like islam and buddhism and others.

My point was targeted to whiggamore to illustate that you cannot say that Christanity has such a noble past, and thus it should be an example for us, based on its past.
It also has a very ignoble past, and as far as I am concerned they cancel each other out for the purpose of upholding an example.