Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English

Well as I said things have and always will be about money. American citizens willing to work for less than minimal wages are free to do so as well. They can certainly ship their family in some other country with low standard of living (I'm sure with enough cash flowing from US they won't even need to learn the local language) and then they can share an apartment 50-way instead of 30-way and undercut the illegals.
A couple of states happen not to have minimum wage laws so that would seem doable at least in principle.

Of course US government can institute protectionalist policies as John suggested and send inspections to other countries to monitor the wages, working conditions etc... But what guarantees that the other country would accept US inspections? Another way is to just stop international trade whatsoever - only US produced goods will be allowed to be sold on the US market. That is also not a good solution.
I've seen some people boycotting companies who are deemed immoral. That really is the only way to solve this, but it requires enough people to be willing to voluntarily pay the cost of not purchasing certain products. The mechanism is there, but it's not used, so the result is what we have and that will continue. Just because people are primarily selfish and would like everybody else to pay the cost, while they share in the benefits. I don't think it will change anytime soon.

To my mind globalization is unavoidable and outsourcing is similar to a US company moving to another state where the economic conditions are more favorable, but on a more global scale. I threw in the outsourcing thing just because when the economy was going well and almost every american citizen could get an office job nobody cared that their lettuce was picked from an illegal immigrant. I've given that example before - a friend of mine comes from a farming family in CA and according to his dad those of mexican origin are way way more motivated, hardworking and honest those who speak fluent english. And as far as summer jobs go, I have plenty of college-aged relatives who are working each summer in various low skilled jobs in US and Europe. 16-hour days 7/days a week at a mimimum wage, living in barracks. Of course the few thousand dolalrs they earn from doing that is quite a different thing in where they come from, than where a US citizen will normally spend their money. But that's how it is - the standard of living in various parts of the world is different and both workers and employers can exploit this inequality. Perhaps in the long term the gaps will close a bit, who knows. But I don't think anybody has a good solution where everybody is happy. In such situation I personally would put my bets on being as competitive as I can on a global scale and then I can continue doing what I like to do and not have to compete for the lettuce picking jobs out there (it's not that I haven't done such jobs).

I guess different countries like to do things differently, but going after employers and employees seems rather backwards to me. If you care about your national security you protect your border with military. US has only 2 land borders, most countries have 4. Of course most countries are also more densely populated, but if a state cannot protect its borders it really deserves its neighbors to cross them as they see fit. The US-Mexico border is about 2000 mile long. It seems reasonable to me that 50 soldiers is more than enough to protect each mile, which would require 100 000 soldiers. US has a lot more than that in various foreign countries, which tells me that it's not the lack of personel, but the lack of will that is to be blamed.

So, yes, the illegal aliens are criminals, the people who employ them are criminals as well, but what are the political leaders who have failed to protect the US border? What about the voters who elect them? If memory serves there was at least one presidential candidate who wanted to secure the US border - he didn't seem to enjoy all that much support. The same is true even on a smaller scale of local governments.

Perhaps the problem is not with our borders or our laws. Perhaps the problem stems from the corrrupt governments of the Central and South American countries from which our immigrants flee. These people, like any people will and have risked life and limb to make a living for themselves and their families. It is likely that if the situation were reversed, I would sneak into Mexico, Guatemala, Equador or anywhere I had to to get money to feed myself and my family. If I found myself landing in a Spanish speaking country but in an English speaking neighborhood, I would speak English as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by icedog

Perhaps the problem is not with our borders or our laws. Perhaps the problem stems from the corrrupt governments of the Central and South American countries from which our immigrants flee. These people, like any people will and have risked life and limb to make a living for themselves and their families. It is likely that if the situation were reversed, I would sneak into Mexico, Guatemala, Equador or anywhere I had to to get money to feed myself and my family. If I found myself landing in a Spanish speaking country but in an English speaking neighborhood, I would speak English as much as possible.

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Isn't it interesting that corporations can move their manufacture to Mexico, their finances to the Cayman Islands, their corporate offices to any state that offers them a tax break. But if I try to cross an imaginary line in the dirt to get a job to support my family, I'm a criminal.

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Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Isn't it interesting that corporations can move their manufacture to Mexico, their finances to the Cayman Islands, their corporate offices to any state that offers them a tax break. But if I try to cross an imaginary line in the dirt to get a job to support my family, I'm a criminal.

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I would bet those companies do it legally, just as you would!

If they don't, then they are criminals!

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Originally Posted by Nord Jim

But if I try to cross an imaginary line in the dirt to get a job to support my family, I'm a criminal.

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That isn't true at all. It's only when you do it in disregard for the laws of that country that you're a criminal. I wouldn't be here today if what you just said was actually true, unless you're talking specifically about what you would do personally (disregard legal process) and not just some random person trying to make ends meet

And I'm not saying it's always wrong to disregard disagreeable laws, but I don't think there have been any giant corporations sneaking across the border from the US to Mexico in order to support their families

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

And I'm not saying it's always wrong to disregard disagreeable laws, but I don't think there have been any giant corporations sneaking across the border from the US to Mexico in order to support their families

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The CEO's of giant corporations don't sneak? What sort of crap is that? That's all they do is sneak. The whole point in running a corporation is to max the salary and bonus. We've seen it again and again. Until they get caught laws don't matter.

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Originally Posted by icedog

The CEO's of giant corporations don't sneak? What sort of crap is that? That's all they do is sneak. The whole point in running a corporation is to max the salary and bonus. We've seen it again and again. Until they get caught laws don't matter.

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yeah, that happens on both sides of the border

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Originally Posted by icedog

The CEO's of giant corporations don't sneak? What sort of crap is that? That's all they do is sneak. The whole point in running a corporation is to max the salary and bonus. We've seen it again and again. Until they get caught laws don't matter.

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They dont have to sneak, they have the laws rewritten or ignored to their satisfaction. After the average joes across America built trade unions, labor laws, envronmental laws etc. , creating a good clean and fair life, in come things like NAFTA and GATT, that allow the corporations to jump ship and go elswhere, skirting the laws that ensure accountability for their actions, the pollution they create, the children they would enslave given the chance, fair wages and compensation, and you can bet they are the ones holding the borders open despite a post 9/11 world, in order to further destroy the American Dream. Do I wish to compete with illegal slave labor? NO! It is a race to the bottom, what would I win? While my labor has made someone else exceedinly wealthy, I would end up old, broken and as hungry as the moment I was born, without anything I could show the world and call mine.
When they have their way it will be as in the days of olde, you will work the lords land, tend to his flocks and live in the hovel he has provided, and after his feasting there might be some left over for you.

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Originally Posted by gugi

So, yes, the illegal aliens are criminals, the people who employ them are criminals as well, but what are the political leaders who have failed to protect the US border? What about the voters who elect them? If memory serves there was at least one presidential candidate who wanted to secure the US border - he didn't seem to enjoy all that much support. The same is true even on a smaller scale of local governments.

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Here is what I believe to be a big part of the problem. It isn't about the borders so much as there is so much political support behind those wishing to come here illegally that now rather than enforce the laws politicians would rather have authorities "catch and release" felons and others here illegally, rather than have groups such as La Rasa call them "racists". Personally, I see no racism in applying the laws equally to those from all nations. I know legal immigrants from many countries, yes, some from Mexico and central and South American nations as well. They did things the right way. Unfortunately, the media and the political complex it typically supports is also lawsuit-jumpy, and hence candidates who support the rule of law and enforcement thereof-seldom get much media and political support. Watch our elections and notice percentages of coverage. Theoretically the news is supposed to give equal time to each candidate and be neutral on who should or should not win. Unfortunately here in the U.S. the networks have lost much credibility, because this is not the case. It is clear as crystal not only who the networks WANT to win, but also based on the hugely disproportional coverage that in general, they intend to help him win. Too bad there is no substance behind the candidate. Too much of that going around, IMHO....

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Originally Posted by icedog

Perhaps the problem is not with our borders or our laws. Perhaps the problem stems from the corrrupt governments of the Central and South American countries from which our immigrants flee. These people, like any people will and have risked life and limb to make a living for themselves and their families. It is likely that if the situation were reversed, I would sneak into Mexico, Guatemala, Equador or anywhere I had to to get money to feed myself and my family. If I found myself landing in a Spanish speaking country but in an English speaking neighborhood, I would speak English as much as possible.

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Interesting point, although it should be noted that refugees are a completely different matter than those wishing to come here make (for them) a lot of money to send home and take advantage of what others pay for with no return. No one is asking anyone not to speak their native tongue, I would probably do the same. Th only thing asked is a conscious effort to learn the majority language as well. Most tourists can learn to ask where the restroom and order "two more beers, please" in just about any language in a few hours. It like people are being asked to speak with a convincing "American" accent or anything. Just as in your example of the English speaking neighborhood, that is perfectly fine, but then you should also speak enough Spanish in that situation to function within that society.

Of course, if you are being hunted, and are evading or some such, this discussion is not exactly about that, either.

Gugi, I understand your premise that everything ties into money, but in this case, I feel it is irrelevant in most cases, although I've stated how I feel about illegal "immigration" earlier. Someone wishing to become a citizen or a resident alien (no other reason to stay here) is a liability if they refuse to learn rudimentary English, not to mention this is an indication of why one truly came to the US (or any other country...).

Much as in the past people would try to get married for money to speed up the citizenship/green card process (perhaps they still do) the government now has to ask all sorts of questions to see if someone got married for love....or convenience. Refusal to learn the language and expecting everyone else to cater to YOU vice chipping in like everyone does....is another indication one is here for convenience only.

The statement that Americans can just go somewhere where wages are lower is not true. Most of us cannot afford the plane ticket even if we wanted to-and Mexico DOES enforce it's labor laws, and it's borders (with bullets) They tell the US we should be more understanding and leave food etc. for illegals, meanwhile the Mexican army is posted on *their* southern border shooting people.... Good luck getting a job there.

NordJim, I agree with your frustration against the global corporations, and no, IMHO they are not truly "American" anymore than they are "British" or some other nation. They owe allegiance to no nation, and if something is beneficial to them, but illegal here...they will simply do so in another country where it is not illegal. Crossing an imaginary line in the dirt "to feed your family" does indeed make you a criminal, if that line is crossed in the middle of the night, with intention of taking advantage of that country. Think about it. If you go to your neighbor's house and he feeds you, you are a friend. If you sneak into your neighbor's yard, go into his house and take his food in the middle of the night-you are a criminal, even if you are doing so "to feed your family". Convenience store robbers have made the same claim before.

Crime (IMHO) on the part of global corporations who skirt the laws of one country by operating in another, does not in turn justify illegal actions of others, no matter how honest their intentions. People come here legally both to work and to live every single day. There is a long wait until citizenship perhaps, but in the mean time they can stay here. Other nations have to wait for a lottery and all sorts of other things.



All of which has nothing to do with the original post, perhaps, but everyone here knows I tend to be a sucker for this stuff.
Those immigrating should either know English or be willing to attempt learning it. I do not think fluency should be enforced, but a basic skills requirement is only fair, IMHO for someone claiming they really want to stay and either become an American or a permanent resident here. It isn't too much to ask a good faith effort from someone to demonstrate their honest intention of being a contributing member of society, and learning the language is one such method which also would help ease strain on many various entities a new Immigrant/resident Alien would encounter, such as EMS, Law Enforcement, Fire, hospital workers, teachers...the list goes on.

Doctors are taught medicine. *Linguists* are taught multiple languages. They shouldn't have to do both, IMHO just because someone does not have enough respect for our nation to at least try learning the basics. Such people, IMHO, are not welcome and have likely no intent of positive contribution to society. Doctors are sworn to help such people in spite of themselves. The rest of us, however, are not.


John P.

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Originally Posted by ScottS

Sounds like you're starting to understand where the "living wage" arguments are coming from.

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Hi Scott.
Sorry in advance, btw for the off-topic bit, but here goes:
I personally have never had any issue with a "living wage". I am however skeptical that it would help. Saying a company has to pay U.S. citizens a particular amount, without requiring that company to pay its employees in OTHER countries the SAME equivalent amount-does nothing IMHO to solve the problem, but instead encourages companies sitting on the fence to send labor overseas. Raising the minimum wage here does nothing if workers have to compete for their livelihoods with products produced by those who work for so much less that were it done here the people in charge would be dragged out in handcuffs.
It's dirty and most of them do it. It doesn't make it right. Tariffs on such products might not raise what they pay their workers, and no doubt they'd have attorneys find ways around the laws, but eventually perhaps some of them would realize that if they have to pay the same, an American is just as competitive as a Chinese person, and if not, at least they would pay the foreign worker a fair wage.
Now, back to regularly scheduled programming, as I know this has nothing to do with languages spoken....



John P.