Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English

"Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country."
-Theodore Roosevelt

I was wondering how this requirement would be applied in today's United States. For instance, how would the government enforce this type of law? Would deportation be the penalty if they didn't pass the test? Would immigrants be required to take a written exam after 5 years? What about those who learned enough English to get by but maybe not enough pass a written test? Or what about those who could speak English but have not learned how to read or write? What if the immigrant is the child of immigrants? Would the child have to learn to speak English in 5 years as well? And what if the immigrants have a child while they are here and one fails to pass whatever test might be required? Would that parent be deported? Would this apply to legal immigrants as well as illegal immigrants? If both are a married couple and one passes and the other doesn't, would we still deport the non-passing spouse? Who would provide the funds to teach these people English? Or would they have to bear this expense on their own? What if they couldn't afford to take English classes? Would the government offer financial assistance so they could learn the language? Would we also require these people to actually speak English in everyday life, or could they decide for themselves if and when they want to continue using their native language?

Just wondering what this would look like....

Congrats on your 101st post, Senior Member :)

To be more on topic, Roosevelt's "should" was not a "shall". I agree with the should, but I don't think the shall is possible to enforce

This one is really easy:

Deport them if they fail the verbal or written test they need to pass both. Any family members or children they have who pass the test are welcome to stay, or go, their choice. since they are living in an immersion class there is no need for anyone tyo pay for anything, if they want to learn, they will, if they don't learn, out they go.

This would only apply to legal immigrants because illegal immigrants are breaking the law and should be deported for that anyway.

To bad ol' T R couldn't put this into practice.

Even people applying for U.S Citizenship have exemptions like if your over age 50 you don't need to pass an english test and you can take your history test in your native language. Also remember there are many classes of people who reside here besides permanent residents. There are many nonimmigrant classes where theoretically they are here for temporary periods and must return home but many stay for very long periods of time and eventually become permanent anyway. Also there are many who derive and acquire U.S Citizenship and there are no tests of any kind for them.

My father's father Almicare came to the USA from Italy in the late 1920's. He and his wife Josephine got off a ship at Ellis Island. They settled in Bridgeport, CT. He got a job in maintenance at General Electric and worked there until he retired. Almicare and Josephine had two sons and three daughters. The boys, my father and his brother Angelo had to quit school and work so the family could eventually buy the three family house in which they were renting an apartment. My grandfather worked very hard even after his retirement. He always kept a very fruitful garden and made alot of really nice wines. By the time he died in 1972, although he understood a fair amount of it, Almicare spoke no English. I am glad he wasn't deported.

Deporting is to harsh. I do believe that everybody that becomes a US Citizen should be able to read and write english, not memorize it off a card.

Later,
Richard

Legal immigrants are the least of our worries...

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Originally Posted by riooso

Deporting is to harsh. I do believe that everybody that becomes a US Citizen should be able to read and write english, not memorize it off a card.

Later,
Richard

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I think you mean, "Deporting is too harsh".

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Originally Posted by icedog

I think you mean, "Deporting is too harsh".

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That's probably why he thinks it's too harsh :)

I think one should be able, especially when trying to become a citizen of a particular nation, to speak and use the common language of that nation to a functional level within a certain amount of time. Icedog, it is apparent to me that your grandfather to his credit did this. Perhaps he did not speak any at home, and maybe he only knew enough to perform his job, but he was at least functional enough to work for GE. Right? Fluency may or may not come later, but there is no excuse for not putting the effort to become functional in the language. Otherwise where is the evidence one really WANTS to become a citizen, rather than just reap whatever benefits/escape some other nation he or she feels is worse....? Citizenship should be granted only to those who truly desire it, and not those who merely find it convenient or perhaps profitable. Honestly, I believe there are even naturally born citizens who based on their loyalties, should not be-but that is not the law.
Anyone attempting to be naturalized needs to convince the new country of his or her loyalty to, ability to function within, and allegiance to the new country, as it is not always a common thing to give up one's birth nation. It isn't a decision that should be taken lightly, IMHO.

John P.

I have to say I'm an outsider in this, but I think people should learn English when living in the states. English is not hard to learn as a second language.

I'm a French Canadian. Of course my English is not perfect; I sometimes make dumb mistakes, some words I simply don't know even if some kids know them, and my verb tenses are sometimes just wrong. But I can understand people and people can understand me. With daily practice, one can come with a really good English in maybe 2-3 years. Some will learn faster, some slower. I think 5 years to learn English isn't exagerated.

But I still am ****ed when I see people who lived in Quebec for generations and can't even say "Bonjour" or "Merci" right (Hello and thanks).

The title looks rather familiar:hmmm: Where have I seen that before?:w:D

Icedog, Your Grandpa was a credit to your family and to this nation! I am also glad he wasn't deported!

I know this is going to be a really hot topic. My grandmother immigrated to the US after WWII from Germany. She states that in order to become a citizen she had to learn english and pass a written test in english. There was more of a pride of becoming a citizen back in the day, and people worked hard to contribute.

IMVHO todays society in America in general is all about...what can this country do for me...because im entitled, rather than...I need to work hard to get ahead. The English thing for me is frustrating as well...being a healthcare worker..seeing so many that get a free ride on our tax dollar...who DEMAND people to speak their tongue..while living in America and not even attempting to speak the language that is providing them with so much.

ok, somebody name our official language! quick!

Wait, we don't have one.

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Originally Posted by Nickelking

ok, somebody name our official language! quick!

Wait, we don't have one.

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While we dont have an official language....it is understood that English is the primary language spoken in the states. Heck...the quote is by a former president of the united states.

True, as JMS said in chat we do have a traditional language. I'm just saying no legislation could be passed until congress approves a native language; So the point is moot.

Maybe or maybe not.
Whether there is a recognized state language or not has nothing to do with the need for aspiring citizens to be able to demonstrate their ability to function with respect to all parts of their new society. This includes the commonly spoken language, whether it has been recognized officially or not. Its use as a requirement for citizenship makes perfect sense. When a police officer says "stop" or a sign says "Yield to Pedestrians" it might be important for someone to know this. It is also important, because new citizens vote just like everyone else. It might be nice if they could understand the candidates. Read the newspapers. Do a number of things.
Those who come here (often illegally-there's a difference wrt those) and demand to have someone speak to them as above, in their native tongue, neither truly desire nor deserve citizenship and IMHO should be escorted post haste on the first cargo flight/ship/etc with a meal and water, back to his or her home country. Save the passenger planes and ships for the real immigrants who work and whose efforts are cheapened by the actions of the former.
Just my opinion, anyway.

John P.

Its funny...

In fact just today..I was working..and one of my patients asked me if I speak spanish. When i said No, the patient said...why not..you live on the border..you should speak spanish. Now they said all that in Spanish and I understood more or less. I asked in my broken spanish....Where do you live? Do you live in America...Because I do...and I speak English...and when I go to Mexico..I dont expect anyone to speak my language..because I am a guest, In fact...I try to speak the language there. The patient then began to tell me that she doesnt need to speak english and requested a nurse that spoke spanish.

Its interesting...living on a border city. In America..your expected to speak both languages....when you cross that border, Hardly Anyone will speak to you in spanish. If you dont know spanish, your S.O.L for the most part. There is no..why dont you speak english..you live on the border talk.

Just venting 30 years of frustration out here...

When non-immigrants can speak English, then I'll worry about the newcomers. It would look pretty sad if the immigrants spoke better than the "natives."

Oh, wait...

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Originally Posted by IsaacRN

Its interesting...living on a border city. In America..your expected to speak both languages....when you cross that border, Hardly Anyone will speak to you in spanish. If you dont know spanish, your S.O.L for the most part. There is no..why dont you speak english..you live on the border talk.

Just venting 30 years of frustration out here...

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¿Possiblé usted significó inglés?
Your signature says you are in New York City. Are you saying that is a "border city"?
I agree with you. In other countries we are expected to speak the official language of the country. However, those countries don't bill themselves as the "melting pot". Having said that, I have travelled a bit and never had any trouble Speaking English in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, Finland, Norway and Sweden. It appears the schools in many countries teach English.
If it were not for immigrants, the USA would not exist. Here there are neighborhoods that are completely non-English and that is far from limited to Spanish. There are people that are born in the USA but grow up rarely speaking English. Our major cities have Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Greek, German, Italian, Polish, Isreali and other sections that, because of heavy concentration of a given nationality can seem quite convincingly foreign.

Isaac is from Texas, lives in New York, and is now in Tucson!

Isaac will correct me where I am wrong I'm sure!

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Originally Posted by icedog

¿Possiblé usted significó inglés?
Your signature says you are in New York City. Are you saying that is a "border city"?
I agree with you. In other countries we are expected to speak the official language of the country. However, those countries don't bill themselves as the "melting pot". Having said that, I have travelled a bit and never had any trouble Speaking English in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, Finland, Norway and Sweden. It appears the schools in many countries teach English.
If it were not for immigrants, the USA would not exist. Here there are neighborhoods that are completely non-English and that is far from limited to Spanish. There are people that are born in the USA but grow up rarely speaking English. Our major cities have Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Greek, German, Italian, Polish, Isreali and other sections that, because of heavy concentration of a given nationality can seem quite convincingly foreign.

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It would behoove them to learn the language!

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Originally Posted by JMS

It would behoove them to learn the language!

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You'll get no arguement from me on this point. I think behoovery is tres gooder except for those of us who want to have periodicalistical, repeatedory conversationals about people in this country who are not linguisticulating proper like the English.

I agree with the should, not with the shall. At least not in all circumstances.
If a familiy immigrates and bring along their elder grandparent, well, so be it. And dyslectic people whould not be subject to written tests either.
There are possible exemptions enough, but I agree that everyone who is not disqualified for a good reason should learn the native language.

Languages are a touchy subject inBelgium (having 3 offical languages), also because the people who speak different languages don't necessarily like the others...

Recently the constitutional court agreed with the Flemish social services that it is perfectly reasonable to only grant social mortgages to people if they speak the regional language, or if they learn it within 5 years (and lose their mortgage benefits if they don't).
To me this is as it should be. If you can't be bothered to integrate properly, then why should we pay for your house?

I always find it interesting that immigrates that are legal come here with a deep respect and a desire to become part of this "Great Experiment" that Thomas Jefferson alluded to. What I find extremely interesting is that many immigrants try to make the US in the image of, sorry for the crudeness, the "**** bag" country they came from. How is it that they do not understand the the reason the country they came from is the way it is has to do with the attitude and beliefs of the established society that exists there. One example that comes to mind is people that come from a country that does not have any faith in their police force. They come here and have the same attitude and become victims of gangs because they will not go to the police for help. It is a complicated issue but for any country to be come a cohesive society we must all speak and write the same language. I am going to get in trouble here but look at Canada. For God's sake they are all Canadians but there are the people that live in Quebec that want to become their own entity because they speak, and are, French. Can you imagine a country like the US that has 50 different languages?

Take Care,
Richard

Old habits die hard. Especially if you got them for a good reason.

My grandmother is now 93 years old and lives in a home for the elderly. But 10 years ago she was still able bodied and took care of herself, living on her own.
And her larder was always overstocked with flour, salt, sugar, ... the stuff that doesn't go bad.
And she didn't actually use it much, but she always had industrial quantities of everything.
It was a habit ingrained in her during the period post WW1 - post WWII.

Even though she knew it was pointless at an intellectual level, and we told her from time to time that it wasn't necessary, she still did things like that. She could not help herself.
For example: In the summer during a heat wave, she'd buy 100 gallons of bottled water 'just in case', even though where I come from, tap water is literally mineral water, pumped up from 800 meters deep in the next village.

My point is that it is all very easy to say 'you shouldn't do that' if your survival has depended on those things for the first half of your life.

Bruno, I know what you're talking about. In her late 80's, early 90's my great-grandmother wouldn't spare enough flour from her war-prep cache to make a few crepes.
I also agree with the "should" but not "shall." Other than having to deal with the elderly and people with learning disabilities, I just don't see how just making someone learn the language will help them integrate into the society. I know several people who understand and speak English when necessary, but avoid it whenever they can. They'll end up working dead-end jobs, having no prospects and b****ing about how the old country was way better. On the other hand, my grandma, whenever she visited us, she took English classes to improve her language skills even though she never intended to move to Canada. Ofcourse, she had a law degree (because tuberculosis prevented her from getting an engineering degree), already spoke Serbian, Macedonian and French, had worked for private practices and public service and held our family together. The cream will rise to the top.

Why do I get the feeling that this wouldn't change things all that much?

"Meesta! Meesta! I a-know Eenglish now! I deed eet!"

*Rolls Eyes* "---That lawn isn't going to mow itself, Jose!"

*Comical, decending notes on a trumpet with mute are heard*

ok here goes, this is an emotional topic and yes I can understand it....the UK and most of Europe is experiencing the same issues as there are no borders in the EU anymore, free travel etc, this has made a similar employment situation as it has here too.

Speak english....yes....should or shall...well thats debateable, i dont care, but you must try hiding behind a language is all to easy for some people, however not everyone is like that,my english is my native tongue but i live in the south now so you can imagine how I feel sometimes...lol

In short , yes i get ticked off with it....this topic can take many turns....but i do believe as a person who works for a living, pays tax and recieves benefits through working, that all people should try...on the downside of what I said if Im laid off I recieve NOTHING...NADA...ZIP....IS THAT TRULY FAIR i WONDER.

I love it here and dont mind the extra effort it takes.....

my tuppence worth, simon:tu

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Originally Posted by Nickelking

True, as JMS said in chat we do have a traditional language. I'm just saying no legislation could be passed until congress approves a native language; So the point is moot.

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Actually I have to correct this point.

There is already federal legislation that requires people to speak in English.

If you want a Commercial Drivers license you are required by federal law to be able to speak English well enough to communicate with the police. The police can ticket for this violation to the tune of $500 or 90 days in jail and they do ticket for it 25000 times a year.

So even though we have no official language congress has already passed laws requiring the speaking ofEnglish in certain situations.

You know, there are many places in this country where if you were blindfolded and transported there you would be positive you were not in the U.S. Not just ethnic neighborhoods in large cities but entire counties and regions especially areas in the valley region in South Texas and parts of New Mexico and areas in Northern Vermont.

Now the question of the day I have for all of you is this? As a native born U.S Citizen, if you want to relinquish your citizenship, how can you do it? Or can you?

Shoulds and Shalls notwithstanding,
I believe simply if one wishes to be a citizen of a nation, he or she should do whatever possible to allow proper functioning within that society. FAA air traffic control language is all conducted in English, by law, even. Imagine a 747 pilot trying to communicate in (language X) and demanding the overworked air traffic controllers speak his language or get a translator? Bad things could happen. Which I guess is why I'm beating the "functional usage" horse here. One doesn't have to be fluent enough to discuss nuclear physics (unless one is a physicist, perhaps) in English, just enough to get across ideas and comprehend them from others. Fluency would be ideal, but enough to get by would also be fine IMHO. Many people can learn enough of a language to *get by* in a month or two, even though they won't be conversationally capable perhaps. IMHO not being able to use language to at LEAST this level after five WHOLE YEARS seems to indicate a lack of interest in truly becoming a citizen, as it is apparent such people have likely hidden within small communities and avoided being truly incorporated into society.
If I went to Mexico to live for instance, I may never sound like a native, but I would have the decency to 1) not expect everyone to know English and 2) at least continue to attempt the language. Within 5 years I'm pretty sure I would be fluent, even if I had a horrible accent.
Expecting the same from immigrants here is also only fair. It isn't about whether someone should be deported so much as do they *genuinely* want to be a part of this society in the first place enough to be a citizen, and to do so safely?

Just my thoughts, anyway.

John P.

What would motivate immigrants to improve their English knowledge when some times they're capable to do much better than those who do?

What's really important is the willingness to get ahead, and do whatever it takes to be successful in life for yourself and for those who depend on you.

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Originally Posted by Navaja

What would motivate immigrants to improve their English knowledge when some times they're capable to do much better than those who do?

What's really important is the willingness to get ahead, and do whatever it takes to be successful in life for yourself and for those who depend on you.

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+1....I think.
The first part of your post, I'm not sure I understand, perhaps there are natural born citizens who do not speak English either? I also do not think that is a good thing.
I completely agree with the second part of your post at any rate, and I think it sums up my mindset on this as well.

John P.

Many years ago, when there was a lot of factory work in the US, non-English-speaking immigrants were capable to perform many jobs without having to learn the language. Then, communities of different nationalities were formed, providing all kind of services, food stores, etc.
Look what happens in Miami, for example, there's no need to speak English to be successful, on the other hand, people speaking only English may be at a disadvantage.
Only the next generation brings the benefits of a bilingual society.

I see what you mean. It is possible for people to grow up in their own communities and never have to speak English, but such is only a good thing if those people do not leave the communities. Is it good for them to be bilingual? Of course. On the other hand, I feel ifa nation is to be cohesive, and truly a nation, there has to be a commonality at some point also. There are servicemen and women from those same areas in Miami, for instance just as there are some from, I don't know, Chicago, who do not use English much at home. They still use it when interacting with other Americans, and it is to their advantage. This is all I see would be necessary. I don't care if you speak Swahili or ancient Greek in your own home or in private conversations with friends, so long as you are able to interact in the language the majority of the country speaks to a functional level also. It might be helpful for others to learn a foreign language, also, but it will DEFINITELY be helpful to the immigrant to add English to his or her repertoire if it is not already there. Most Americans, as you probably already know, already have to take one to two years of a foreign language before graduating High School. When I was there, my school only offered Latin, French, and Spanish. I took Spanish, but for the first year we were taught Castilian Spanish, and then the teacher for the second year was from Costa Rica and pronunciations, etc. changed dramatically; at any rate, unless one is in a position to be able to *use* this language and talk to people, it rapidly becomes forgotten. Which is why I think immigrants should interact not only with those who speak their original native tongue, but run-of-the-mill Americans as well. It works both ways. Still, that's another topic in itself.


John P.

My wife and in-laws immigrated from Korea in the 70's. Even though Korean is her milk tongue, her english is much better.

My in-laws both speak workable english.

Here's what a great country we live in. In 30 years, they went from picking onions in LA to owning a small business (convenience store, what else?) and retiring in comfort. They live pretty simply, but they have enough. My Father in law was a ROK Marine in Viet Nam, a taxi driver in Seoul, assistant to an OB-GYN and who knows what else. He had to quit school at around fourth grade to support the family when his father gambled the farm away.

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Originally Posted by JMS

Isaac is from Texas, lives in New York, and is now in Tucson!

Isaac will correct me where I am wrong I'm sure!

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Correcto Mundo

They need to know English and here is a good start...and good reason to know English

YouTube - Super Bowl XLI Commercial -Bud Light Starring: Carlos Mencia

I sure wish my computer had sound. Carlos Mencia is absolutely hilarious.

John P.