What does everybody think of the idea of making it mandatory for all US citizens to learn a second language.
Give every citizen, say, 5 years to learn a second language. Think Teddy R. would approve?
What does everybody think of the idea of making it mandatory for all US citizens to learn a second language.
Give every citizen, say, 5 years to learn a second language. Think Teddy R. would approve?
I think second and third languages are a great idea, but should be voluntary!Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
On the other hand, if you plan on visiting a country that does not speak English, for any length of time, it behooves you to at least make an attempt to learn the language of the host country, and if your intention is to become a citizen of the host country, then whatever the language, you do your utmost to learn it!!
Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages:
A: Bilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
A: Trilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks only one language?
A: American.
Thought you'd enjoy a linguist joke.
j
PS: Could be the wrong thread for a joke?
:yfun-nee!!!!
OK there are two things that you guys go back and fort between
(1) Functional use of english - clearly beneficial for the person, this is market driven (if they don't speak the predominant language they are at disadvantage, in Miami that would be spanish). Note that the FAA example falls here - it is a job requirement, just as being a licensed pilot.
(2) What the title of this thread implies - a government (local or federal) requirement. The arguments here have nothing to do with the market. Let's consider one of them - to make the nation cohesive - would you also prefer all laws to be federal - that's along the same venue?
The truck driver regulation falls in the first category - part of the job is to be able to effectively communicate with the police. Now, if you think that every single person should be required to do so, not just drivers, well I would argue that English is not enough, there is a communications skills component. I can imagine that the obvious and worst possible solution is to administer a test and whoever fails it would be taken away from the society.
In any case certainly one can distinguish between citizens and non citizens, the former having a free pass just because they happened to be born here, but viewed objectively, I don't see a non-political reason for such distinction. Couly gave a good example how noncitizens are being screwed for what I see as no good reason.
And yes, I'm immigrant, I learned English (as well as several other languages) and I am not sure how long I would like to be in US. Which obviously doesn't preclude me from expressing my opinion in better than passable english :p.
This is one of those cases in which I could wish that conservatives would stand on their principles.
I'm specifically speaking of the principle that market forces, left alone without undue regulation, will result in the best outcome. Doesn't work all the time, I'm afraid, but I think it will work here.
In a country in which most people speak one language, and in which virtually all serious business is conducted in that language, it's a critical disadvantage for people who want to make their way not to speak that language. Thus, they learn it if they possibly can.
In my experience, which includes working youth programs in inner city neighborhoods of New York City, I noticed that in many cases, parents had a tough time learning English. It's a known fact that as you progress into adulthood, languages become incrementally more difficult. It's not that they didn't learn English; it's just that it took a long time, lots of work, and the results were often imperfect. Add to that the fact that somebody working two jobs doesn't usually have a lot of study time.
But the kids? Within six months, they could get by in English. In a year, they were speaking it. In two, they were, for all intents and purposes, English speakers. I'd hate to tell you how many times I've had a twelve-year-old kid act as interpreter for his parents. And the parents involved were obviously proud of him.
Let the market do its thing. We don't need more regulations.
j
I think you are confusing conservatism and capitalism here. They are not the same, and you are applying the rules applying to one to another group entirely. Not that there aren't capitalist conservatives, but there are also capitalist liberals. Ask Al Gore about his private jet, for example.
If an individual wishes to come here (or any other nation, for that matter) and remain-this is beyond a simple tourist visa or a quick visit. Everyone is welcome, but fact of the matter official business of the United States is conducted in English. Since there isn't an "official" language as of yet, people are allowed to ask for forms etc. also in their own languages for ease of comprehension. Unfortunately, the onus is on the immigrant wishing to stay to demonstrate compatibility with society. It is completely alright if the immigrating person wishes not to learn any of the language-but then I feel such people are often not actually "immigrants" but illegal aliens. Most true immigrants I've met have been extremely proud of their efforts and worked very hard for their citizenship. I'm sure this applies even to a few members here as well, but it is a double standard. On the one hand, the hard working, diligent, intelligent and (usually VERY) patriotic immigrant.....contrasted with illegal aliens who are often the opposite, hoping to avoid any contact with authorities while reaping every possible benefit they can. When approached the typical response is to pretend not to understand the language. It is quite easy to see how such people can hurt the reputations of others who do not deserve it.
On a different topic, I've heard often times people mocking the idea that Americans typically only speak English. I would say to these people, that for the most part, people who speak multiple languages also live within a few miles of someone who speaks the "other" languages that person knows. I'm sure if the only place a European or someone near the border was able to hear a foreign language was an airline ticket costing two months' pay away or inside a university (meaning no job and oh by the way, a few years' pay) they wouldn't be multilingual, either. My Grandfather spoke multiple languages, but he was also raised in pre-WWII Poland after being born in Pennsylvania. So of course, German, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, English, French, and Italian....were all spoken within a day's drive of him, and some of them within a day's walk. Like anything else, (just like my accent) it is best picked up when one grows up in it.
I digress.
The point of it all is, if one wants to become a citizen or resident alien or some such, and stay (well) beyond the 5 year mark, it is in the nation's rights and good sense to make sure that person really wants to be here and not simply collect benefits paid for by others. It is also within a nation's right to want those wishing to *stay here* to speak the common language of government and just about everything else. If not, then I feel that person should not receive the privileges which others who do make the effort receive; e.g. driving a car. Road and traffic signs-are in English. It may be important to know the difference between "Speed Limit-65" and "101 S".
Ultimately, I support the idea. 5 years is a long time and plenty long enough to demonstrate a person wishes to stay, perhaps even become a citizen. Learning the rudiments of a language in this time is not impossible at all. There are many here for whom English is not their first language and they are doing fine with it. For those who do not wish to stay-and leave before 5 years-there is no requirement to do so.
Nothing unfair about it at all. Every country is like this, and it actually surprises me that people would protest the idea of immigrants learning our language, official or not. I would not move to Germany, for instance, then demand to receive benefits paid for by German taxes (medical care/other social programs) all the while refusing to learn German. Understandably, many Germans do speak English, but that is in disrespect for the nation one wishes to assimilated into.
Again, I'm rambling. Someone will no doubt come along and summarize this into a 2 line sentence, I'm sure...
John P.
I agree, this issue should be decided by the markets, not compulsion. That holds true even in official state business.
What business have you or any government official in a free state have demanding somebody converse with you, period? That seems un-American.
An open marketplace, free from unwarranted regulation, is indeed a conservative principle, and has been a central plank of the Republican platform for as long as I, at least, can remember -- as has the notion that the federal government should only regulate what the states cannot. Both, unfortunately, have been more honored in the breach than in the observance, as far as Republican performance in office has been concerned. It's one reason I left the party.
j
Nord Jim, I think I have to agree with you on this one. If I moved to Rome I would have to do as the Romans or languish in Italy. This is the way my people made it when they came here, if you want to do something other than starve, you'd better learn to communicate. The shame these days is that now the marketplace is demanding that Americans speak spanish in order to take financial advantage of those coming from down south. I was raised aDemocrat, became a Reagan Republican, and they are both full of it. Hence my bashing of Gore earlier,GW would get the same.
We are agreed. I will remember this day fondly.Quote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
j
:eek: gasp! conservatives! I'm shocked you would use such a label :D Who are these .... conservatives? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
I think the US ought to require that its people use English as its common language. But it doesn't have to be legislated into law that way, we as citizens can require it ourselves. If you want to do business with me or join in our activities, you need to have a working knowledge of the common language and if you're right off the boat you should be taking steps to learn.
- Lee the Idealist
If you'll look back at numerous threads on this section, you'll find that conservatives are normally self-identifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
But I still don't know who these "liberals" are.
j
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
piece of cake:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
I think you guys may want to learn to read English.Quote:
The cancer within! The worm that dieth not!!
Mr. Idealist, I have several practical suggestions to you as a US representative. To implement your suggestion, please discontinue doing business and any other activities in non-english. Also please stop doing business with anybody who doesn't adhere to this principle. Call your banks and credit card companies and if at any point you are advised to press "1" for english, press 0 and advise the operator that you are discontinuing your business relation with that company. Furthermore if you ever call customer service and the representative tries to pass a heavy indian accent for english, please don't waste your productive time and just toss the malfunctioning product in the garbage - no need to purchase products from the same company in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
Finally you must give away all your razors which are not labeled in plain understandable english. These will include those bearing the communist SFK stamps (they are disguised cyrillic) as well as any razor with a hint of umwald or anything else which makes no common sense in english. And by english I most certainly mean american, it's is just the traditional name to refer to it.
Perhaps it's a good idea to start learning some Spanish, just in case :D
Thank you for the nod Gugi!:D:roflmao
Perhaps I am a bit confused here, but while an open market is something that many conservatives support, it is in and of itself a capitalist principle and has nothing to do with conservatives. We just get lumped in with each other all the time. Conservatism has more to do IMHO with the old "God, Family, Country" ideal, as well as a generally positive attitude towards one's country. It is also a somewhat religious based ideology, many of it's traditions steeped in the various religions that served as founding stones (both good and bad) for our country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
Of course, I tend to take a simplistic view of such things. I also resent "Republicans" being called "Conservatives" when they are often nothing of the sort. They are made from exactly the same cloth as their supposed "opponents" the Democrats, but in reality it's all a shell game IMHO.
I consider myself a conservative on some issues, capitalist on some, and a deep dyed in the wool nationalist. Not, however, a Republican or Democrat. These days, IMHO both of the parties have so homogenized themselves beside one viewpoint (that completely misses the point for most Americans) or the other (which also misses the point equally) that they don't even see what the true issues genuinely are.
Just my opinion, of course, but I don't think my tax dollars, for instance, should be involved in congressional investigations of baseball, for crying out loud.
Just an example.
John P.
I think we should insist that well off youngsters from families that have been American for generations learn to write intelligible English first. Then we can worry about the immigrants that are busting their tails to make a living here doing work no one else wants to do.
I went to Yale and always tested well and blah blah blah and if you required me to learn a second language or face deportment, I'd have to start packing because I've got a tin ear for languages. I think we need to cut some slack to people that are trying to make a go of it in this country doing hard work.
Having said that, I don't like the fact that we enable ignorance of English by posting Spanish language translations of so many things - forcing it is one thing, making it easy not to learn is another.
Incidentally, I do think our schools should copy the Scandinavian model and start teaching second and third languages from elementary school on. That way most people can get programmed to handle more than one language while their brains are still developing. And with the globalization of the economy it is a shame that we are not making ourselves competitive in communication skills.
DoneQuote:
Originally Posted by gugi
That isn't very practical US representative! I can still do business with those in the company who can communicate in English!Quote:
Also please stop doing business with anybody who doesn't adhere to this principle. Call your banks and credit card companies and if at any point you are advised to press "1" for english, press 0 and advise the operator that you are discontinuing your business relation with that company.
I went through those years and came out living simpler and happierQuote:
Furthermore if you ever call customer service and the representative tries to pass a heavy indian accent for english, please don't waste your productive time and just toss the malfunctioning product in the garbage - no need to purchase products from the same company in the future.
Ah, but my Wapienica razors are exempt as I purchased them from a non United Statian! And what's an umwald? :confused: me speaky englishQuote:
Finally you must give away all your razors which are not labeled in plain understandable english. These will include those bearing the communist SFK stamps (they are disguised cyrillic) as well as any razor with a hint of umwald or anything else which makes no common sense in english. And by english I most certainly mean american, it's is just the traditional name to refer to it.
Quote:
Furthermore if you ever call customer service and the representative tries to pass a heavy indian accent for english, please don't waste your productive time and just toss the malfunctioning product in the garbage - no need to purchase products from the same company in the future.
I went through those years and came out living simpler and happier
I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS DEBATE. I THOUGHT ONCE THEY PASSED YOU ON TO THE GUY IN INDIA IT WAS CODE THAT YOU HAD TO THROW THE PRODUCT AWAY AND NEVER BUY FROM THAT COMPANY AGAIN. HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY GOTTEN SOMETHING FIXED ONCE YOU GOT DIVERTED TO INDIA? IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? i THINK A GUY IN INDIA ACTUALLY MANAGED TO NUKE MY CABLE BY REMOTE SOMEHOW BY AUTHORIZING THE WRONG PULSE:gth - SOMEHOW I FEEL THAT SHOULD BE BANNED BY AN INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSLE TREATY OR SOMETHING. :shrug: AND THEN THERE WAS THE GUY IN INDIA THAT REFUSED TO CORRECT MY ADDRESS FOR A PENDING DELIVERY EVEN WHEN WE SHOWED THEM THE EMAILS WE SENT GIVING THEM THE RIGHT ADDRESS AND FURTHER EMAILS NOTING THEY'D TRANSCRIBED IT WRONG. AND THEY HAD SOME REASON.....LIKE THEY AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING OUR ADDRESS WRONG BUT WILL SEND A NEW PRODUCT TO THE WRONG ADDRESS AGAIN IF IT DOESN'T GET TO THE RIGHT ADDRESS THE FIRST TIME THEY SENT IT TO THE WRONG ADDRESS. :rant:
I have a confession to make. Has anyone else received a phone call from an undesired caller before and pretended to be Indian in order to get out of the phone conversation? I do this on occasion at home when soliciters call me, but I've done it at work once or twice too. "Hang on let me connect you to our customer service department. (put caller on hold and then resume with Eastern accent) Heddo dis is Parjeeb, hah meh A hep you?" and then just string them along for the ride in circular broken-English discussions hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by loueedacat
That's awesome:DQuote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
I'll sometimes use a little Spanish, but anymore people know it. I'll have to work on my "Indian" accent:roflmao
my 2c:
I live in Texas, and as a result, was forced (against my will) to take 3 years of spanish when I was in high school. consequently, although my accent esta muy malo, entiendo mas (muy mas) que hablo. I personally don't care if someone speaks english well or not, as long as they can make themselves understood. I think we all know of a certain inner-city dialect that is technically english (if only in the loosest sense) but I find much harder to understand than spanish, which is not my native tongue.
when dealing with other people (especially back when i worked as a waiter) I would communicate based on attitude. if they came in speaking spanish and acting entitled and refusing to even try to speak english, i would pretend i didn't understand, screw their order up, etc. if they made an honest attempt to communicate, i would speak spanish to them. same goes for "english" speaking types. if they rolled into the restaraunt speaking that peculiar dialect that eschews the use of pronouns and consonents, i would flatly refuse to understand them. invariably, they would switch back to normal english if they wanted their orders right.
Funny how that works out, isn't it? I once had a gentleman come in speaking that very dialect who needed to talk to my supervisor. Once he was done with his speel, my boss goes "I didn't understand a word of that, but based on what I know, you're not getting [the thing he wanted]." Let's just say he didn't use that dialect with her any more. On this topic, I will say this one word: Airplane:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
All I ask is that people try. When I visit your country, I'll do my damndest to try to be passable with at least the essentials.
Common courtesy is what I would hope for also!:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Quick Orange
The gentleman says he will have the fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Orange
I don't know that I agree that all citizens or residents should be required to be "fluent" in English, but they certainly need to know enough to get by in society. Whatever that level of involvment may be. For example, I've pretty much given up on ever going to a gas station for directions. 99% of the time, the person working there doesn't speak enough English.
Now, what really drives me crazy is when newcomers not only refuse to learn the language, but then expect everyone else to accomodate this. The fact that we have instructions to vote or get a driver's license in other languages is infuriating.
For those of us who had ancestors come here speaking other languages, I think most of them did what they had to do to earn a living. But if you told them that the state was going to teach their children in Italian or in German or in Chinese, I think they would have gone through the roof. They wanted their kids to "melt" in with society and they knew they needed to speak English to get ahead - to be "American". That's what we're losing these days.
Jordan
How can you make it a law for an immigrant to read English when it isn't the law that a natural citizen read English, or read at all for that matter?
Isn't it the law for kids to go to school and learn how to read? No worries though, Obama plans to expand the current system with his "no illegal immigrant left behind" bill
Unfortunately this isnt just cut and dry, like all things in life there isnt a simple black and white.
It is very difficult to learn a language and older people often have alot of trouble getting there heads around the new concepts. I have just about finished traveling europe (5weeks) and have experienced the difficulty of language. But i have also learnt ALOT while i have been here.
I am launching into a long essay about things not being clear so instead ill cut it short here.
Dont judge unless you have all the facts, and every one needs to make an effort.
Its hard to learn a language but its an effort that i would be happy to make If i were to live in another country. I would also feel ok with that country expecting me to learn it.
Short stoped
+Simon
I believe it might be the law for children to go to school, but you can't make them learn to read any more than you can make them learn algebra, or the multiplication table.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
As for Obama, things are starting to seem inevitable, huh??
[quote=ScottS;240386]*sigh* ok, you saidAnd now you sayQuote:
How can you make it a law for an immigrant to read English when it isn't the law that a natural citizen read English, or read at all for that matter?
Okay, that's true... but what's the point? You can and should make them learn to read, just like you can make them learn algebra or the multiplication table :thinking: (I'm a little slow, please bear with me)Quote:
I believe it might be the law for children to go to school, but you can't make them learn to read any more than you can make them learn algebra, or the multiplication table.
It certainly does seem that way. I've already promised my wife I'm going to take her shooting again somewhere before inauguration day next yearQuote:
As for Obama, things are starting to seem inevitable, huh??
I don't think this is the case yet. There's still a long way to go. We haven't even had the conventions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottS
I think the GOP will try to keep things close until the last month or so then really try to hammer away at the real prospect of having Obama as pres. Kind of the way a defensive football team keeps a game close until they've ground the opposition down and can pound out an ugly win in the fourth. Who knows though....:shrug::D
Jordan
that's just evil. but hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
That reminds me: I need to buy a rifle while it's still easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
I would like the language laws, not to force immigrants to learn English (who's going to enforce it anyway?), but to cut down on all the bi- tri-lingual things we have to deal with. I'm tired of being told that I need to learn Spanish because English isn't going to be spoken in my area in 10 years. I'm really tired of feeling like an outsider in my hometown because the shops, personnel, and merchandise all cater to languages I don't understand.
Isaacrn from N.Y.C. does come from from a border town. It's called New Jersey :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by icedog
:OTI would like to interrupt this program for the following message: Thanks Billy jeff for a great thread! And now back to the program now in progress.:tu
It would've been nice if his only intent was to start a good thread instead of trying to put a couple of members here on the spot!:wQuote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
If I am wrong Billy, PM me so that we can hash this out properly!
If there is an immigrant doing a job I won't do, they can stay and speak however they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by loueedacat
I have, however been unemployed for 9 months.
I actually didn't get a job as a landscaper because I didn't speak Spanish.
Now you tell me again, that they should be allowed to stay!
Perhaps you should learn some Spanish.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim