Spanish is the official language for much of Tulsa. Here it's more convenient for an English speaker to pick up Spanish than it is for a Mexican to pick up English.
Spanish is the official language for much of Tulsa. Here it's more convenient for an English speaker to pick up Spanish than it is for a Mexican to pick up English.
Notice that any proposed legislation for checking the status of any hires conveniently allows enough time to bring in the crops. I keep hearing this BS about "they do work that we don't want to". Whenever a big employer is shut down by a very rare raid, the lines for application for the recently vacated jobs wrap around the block, all with legal citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
What seems to be missing in all of the analyses is that THESE FOLKS ARE CHEAP BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO LEGAL STANDING. We'll see if they stay cheap if the "guest worker" program is expanded. I know the H1-B program pretty much requires a justification for why a citizen cannot be placed in the job. I think this should be standard for all work visas.
They do not do work that we do not want to do , they do work far cheaper than we will, its easier for 20-30 people to paythe rent/mortgage on a place , even with cheaper wages, than it is for you and your wife trying to house your immediate family. The money/power brokers are out to kill the American dream. Its not that America cannot/will not work, its that slave labor is cheaper, bottom line business. They will not be happy until the American worker competes literally with the slave labor that is provided in Mexico, China. Pakistan. Ask your grandparents or great granparents what it was like in the old days, thats where we are headed. No decent wages, no rights, no insurance, no future, work until you drop and then get shoveled out the door.
I agree with your statement and this is what worries me. Apologists for illegals always seem to raise the point that the US was built by immigrants, etc. And yes the first generation may not have spoke English and they lived in some isolation - Little (insert nation here) in the large cities, BUT future generations had to learn English and assimilate to some degree in order to live the American Dream and their parents pushed them to do that. Now, it seems some are trying to say its OK not to assimilate. So then you'll have pockets where you have to speak Spanish or Vietnamese or Hatian, etc. That is not what built this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
Oh, the scale is also completely different from the past. I saw a documentary recently talking about how some 5 million Irish came here between 1600 and the 1920s (or something like that). 5 million is nothing compared to the waves we see today.
You can assimilate and still maintain your heritage. Ugh, this topic is giving me agida! ;)
Right, so we're finally at the source of contention. It's not the language, that's bothering people, it's the money. The lower economic class of US citizens do not want to compete successfully with the immigrants (legal and illegal) because they do not want to lower their standard of living. On the other hand the more enterpreneural US citizens are quite happy to decrease their cost of operation by hiring this cheaper labor.
I imagine that they way things got here was that a not so long ago there were more 'better' jobs available to americans which are now gone because they have been outsourced. But that's just the way things work as the world becomes increasingly globalized. I suppose that americans can take back the landscaping and lettuce picking type of jobs, and these positions may even get a slight pay increase, but this is still only getting ahead from being unemployed.
The way I understand it, the american dream is not moving from an IT consultant to landscaper - it is more like moving from IT consultant to a sucessfull IT consulting business owner.
Everybody wants to give examples of highly sucessful stories, but in reality there are much fewer sucesses than there are failures. Bill Gates built an empire from winning a contract with IBM, but Henry Ford failed over and over and over again.
I find it a bit dishonest to put the blame on the immigrants. Yes the illegal immigrants are breaking the law by crossing the border, yet somehow to me this seems like shifting the burden of protecting a country's border from that country onto its neighbors. As far as border towns turning from english-speaking to spanish-speaking - is this worse than another alternative 'ghost towns'?
In any case, back to the 'requirement' of immigrants learning english - as you may have guessed I would favor market oriented approach. The majority of this country speaks english and if one day that becomes spanish, or chinese, to me that would only mean that those people were economically and demographically more viable than the rest, and then that's how it should be.
In any case it seems to me that the current economic problems of US have very little to do with legal and illegal immigrants. And my understanding is that in historical plan, the numbers as fraction of the population are not too high - a higher fractions have been sucessfully integrated in the past.
I myself am not putting the blame on the immigrant, I put the blame squarely where it belonged, on the big money people who want something for nothing and they want it out of my pocket.
Sarcastically, I say "True". At one time, we were 100% immigrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Not really. There are a lot of US citizens of native American Indian ancestry including myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottS
The source of contention (for me) is the lack of respect for the laws, language, customs, and common practices of the US by people who want to live in the USQuote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Hi again.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I think this is a bit of oversimplification. It is just one facet of many. The jobs being done by illegal aliens are typically paid under the table at rates that an employer would not legally be able to pay a citizen. Sure it is illegal that the employers are hiring illegal aliens and paying them less than minimum wage. Unfortunately there is so little enforcement against the employers that actual citizens essentially need not apply. Many say these are jobs Americans won't do, but this simply isn't true. Many of the jobs formerly occupied by Americans (high school students, laborers, even more skilled trades) are now filled instead by illegal, off the books employees, who do not "live" here, but share an apartment with 20 other men. So, the effect is compound. Rental prices in such areas are artificially high, because even a high rent divided by 30 is cheap-therefore regular families can afford less and less; teens who would have been working a summer job putting shingles on houses or mowing lawns-are now called lazy and unwilling to work, when in reality, they cannot compete with an illegal alien with 30 years experience willing to do it cheaper than the employer is allowed to hire them(the legal citizen) at. I'm not proposing the minimum wage be dropped, but that the employers be taken to task. I also say illegal alien, because, in many cases they have no intent of living here, which is why they split apartments 30 ways. The money goes back to (Mexico/Guatemala/wherever).
This is a different topic, perhaps, but it would be a good one I think. The outsourcing of jobs has nothing, however, to do with those here speaking the language or even people coming here illegally to take advantage of what others have paid for (although a bit tongue in cheek, one could say this is actually becoming the new "American dream" only it doesn't actually involve Americans). Outsourcing is just another way for employers who have become global corporations to skirt labor laws. Personally, while things would be a bit more expensive, I think that people should be paid fair wages for fair work. If a shoe company or (just about any company in China) wants to have 12 year old slave girls make its shoes (or insert other product here...) for $0.15 per hour, then I feel that company's products should be penalized so as to cost exactly the same as if they had paid the employees minimum U.S. wages. I believe in the market, etc. but we cannot sit here and complain about child labor, slavery, etc etc. here in the US then by default support such activities in other countries by allowing corporations to use slave (or *almost*) labor to make their products more competitive against companies which do not support such activities. I also feel that if a foreign company does pay its workers fairly, that should be taken into account and their products should receive less restrictions, IMHO. The global market is only a free market if everyone is playing by similar rules; if we require things of an American company in order to allow them to sell their product to us, the same should apply to foreign, and nominally American(but not) global corporations, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
This is true to a point, especially wrt. the failures involved. It seems too often people miss this part.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I will say this. It really disturbs me to see people speaking of illegal aliens as "immigrants". They are not the same thing. An immigrant is just as American as any other in my opinion. An illegal alien is someone who felt it necessary or even appropriate to cheat everyone else doing things legally, jump the line, then in turn cheat others willing to do work legally by undercutting their wages. Illegal aliens may or may not intend to stay here, may or may not have good intentions (there is no difference IMHO between crossing a nation's border at night in a remote location and "infiltrating" that country). It isn't *that* difficult to come here legally, especially for the majority of those who arrive illegally nightly at the US borders-so why did they not wait their turn like everyone else? I lay the blame on much of this on unscrupulous employers as much as I do those sneaking in, but both are attempting to get something for an unfair profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
This I could agree with; however right now the common language happens to be English. It is only sensible that people should attempt to learn it. Above there have been a few posts speaking of older people who had difficulty with the language-unfortunately for this argument, it is almost NEVER the older person who stands in a hospital demanding they only be spoken to in their native tongue. It is younger people, and to be honest, I wish the laws were different and these people could be informed that just across the border they came over, there is a perfectly good hospital waiting for them. After all, haven't we been told again and again by filmmakers and other knowledgeable medical types that Cuba and other countries like that have much better medical care than we? So stop using our tax money and putting our hospitals out of business unless one is at least willing to try. TRY. It isn't too much to ask. I really don't understand why people decry Americans for wanting those newly here to do this. Every nation in the world does this, why should we Americans be the only ones to take it in the shorts.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
You would only be partially right. Go to San Diego or some other border town. Look at the hospitals that have went out of business. Higher fractions of legal immigrants have been successfully integrated, sure, but we aren't speaking of legal immigration, and the number has lots of zeros on the end of it these days. Legal immigrants are ALWAYS welcome, and are a great contribution to what this country is all about. People who come unlawfully and flaunt the laws of our country show it no respect and, call a spade a spade, they are breaking multiple laws. Demanding (and getting) home loans when citizens can't get them, undercutting wages, artificially inflating the prices of housing, taxing the medical, educational and social security systems...Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
A real immigrant would not demand to be spoken to in his or her native language, but would endeavor to learn English instead. Five years as suggested above is PLENTY of time, even for the slowest to learn enough English to function; at any rate even elderly etc. coming here to assimilate into society at least should (and do!) attempt the language at the very least. Some may never be fluent but functional is much easier to achieve, after all they put the effort forward to get here in the first place, right? no problem. It is the illegal who gets here, cheating the system and breaking the law from the first step on US soil, who, with no respect to his or her host country, demands also to be spoken to in his or her native language. Like our country, he or she has no use for the language the rest of us use, either.
It is my feeling, however, that regardless of one's opinions on those arriving illegally, people who break the law to get here and or stay here are not going to respect any law about language, either. On the other hand, those who put forward the effort to do things correctly, and respect the country they wish to live in, should IMHO be given a certain amount of time to learn some basic skills in English, and if need be, I'm all for help for those people in learning it, as they have shown the effort to do things right in the first place. Learning "Hello," "Stop" "Help" "Where is the (bank/hospital/grocer etc)" and such does NOT take five years even for an elderly person. Typically however, as above, the elderly person at least tries and is not the one from the hospital example.
One day I'll be able to be succinct with my thoughts...
I promise.
John P.
Sounds like you're starting to understand where the "living wage" arguments are coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnP
Well as I said things have and always will be about money. American citizens willing to work for less than minimal wages are free to do so as well. They can certainly ship their family in some other country with low standard of living (I'm sure with enough cash flowing from US they won't even need to learn the local language) and then they can share an apartment 50-way instead of 30-way and undercut the illegals.
A couple of states happen not to have minimum wage laws so that would seem doable at least in principle.
Of course US government can institute protectionalist policies as John suggested and send inspections to other countries to monitor the wages, working conditions etc... But what guarantees that the other country would accept US inspections? Another way is to just stop international trade whatsoever - only US produced goods will be allowed to be sold on the US market. That is also not a good solution.
I've seen some people boycotting companies who are deemed immoral. That really is the only way to solve this, but it requires enough people to be willing to voluntarily pay the cost of not purchasing certain products. The mechanism is there, but it's not used, so the result is what we have and that will continue. Just because people are primarily selfish and would like everybody else to pay the cost, while they share in the benefits. I don't think it will change anytime soon.
To my mind globalization is unavoidable and outsourcing is similar to a US company moving to another state where the economic conditions are more favorable, but on a more global scale. I threw in the outsourcing thing just because when the economy was going well and almost every american citizen could get an office job nobody cared that their lettuce was picked from an illegal immigrant. I've given that example before - a friend of mine comes from a farming family in CA and according to his dad those of mexican origin are way way more motivated, hardworking and honest those who speak fluent english. And as far as summer jobs go, I have plenty of college-aged relatives who are working each summer in various low skilled jobs in US and Europe. 16-hour days 7/days a week at a mimimum wage, living in barracks. Of course the few thousand dolalrs they earn from doing that is quite a different thing in where they come from, than where a US citizen will normally spend their money. But that's how it is - the standard of living in various parts of the world is different and both workers and employers can exploit this inequality. Perhaps in the long term the gaps will close a bit, who knows. But I don't think anybody has a good solution where everybody is happy. In such situation I personally would put my bets on being as competitive as I can on a global scale and then I can continue doing what I like to do and not have to compete for the lettuce picking jobs out there (it's not that I haven't done such jobs).
I guess different countries like to do things differently, but going after employers and employees seems rather backwards to me. If you care about your national security you protect your border with military. US has only 2 land borders, most countries have 4. Of course most countries are also more densely populated, but if a state cannot protect its borders it really deserves its neighbors to cross them as they see fit. The US-Mexico border is about 2000 mile long. It seems reasonable to me that 50 soldiers is more than enough to protect each mile, which would require 100 000 soldiers. US has a lot more than that in various foreign countries, which tells me that it's not the lack of personel, but the lack of will that is to be blamed.
So, yes, the illegal aliens are criminals, the people who employ them are criminals as well, but what are the political leaders who have failed to protect the US border? What about the voters who elect them? If memory serves there was at least one presidential candidate who wanted to secure the US border - he didn't seem to enjoy all that much support. The same is true even on a smaller scale of local governments.
Perhaps the problem is not with our borders or our laws. Perhaps the problem stems from the corrrupt governments of the Central and South American countries from which our immigrants flee. These people, like any people will and have risked life and limb to make a living for themselves and their families. It is likely that if the situation were reversed, I would sneak into Mexico, Guatemala, Equador or anywhere I had to to get money to feed myself and my family. If I found myself landing in a Spanish speaking country but in an English speaking neighborhood, I would speak English as much as possible.
Isn't it interesting that corporations can move their manufacture to Mexico, their finances to the Cayman Islands, their corporate offices to any state that offers them a tax break. But if I try to cross an imaginary line in the dirt to get a job to support my family, I'm a criminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
I would bet those companies do it legally, just as you would!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
If they don't, then they are criminals!
That isn't true at all. It's only when you do it in disregard for the laws of that country that you're a criminal. I wouldn't be here today if what you just said was actually true, unless you're talking specifically about what you would do personally (disregard legal process) and not just some random person trying to make ends meetQuote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
And I'm not saying it's always wrong to disregard disagreeable laws, but I don't think there have been any giant corporations sneaking across the border from the US to Mexico in order to support their families
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
The CEO's of giant corporations don't sneak? What sort of crap is that? That's all they do is sneak. The whole point in running a corporation is to max the salary and bonus. We've seen it again and again. Until they get caught laws don't matter.
yeah, that happens on both sides of the borderQuote:
Originally Posted by icedog
They dont have to sneak, they have the laws rewritten or ignored to their satisfaction. After the average joes across America built trade unions, labor laws, envronmental laws etc. , creating a good clean and fair life, in come things like NAFTA and GATT, that allow the corporations to jump ship and go elswhere, skirting the laws that ensure accountability for their actions, the pollution they create, the children they would enslave given the chance, fair wages and compensation, and you can bet they are the ones holding the borders open despite a post 9/11 world, in order to further destroy the American Dream. Do I wish to compete with illegal slave labor? NO! It is a race to the bottom, what would I win? While my labor has made someone else exceedinly wealthy, I would end up old, broken and as hungry as the moment I was born, without anything I could show the world and call mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
When they have their way it will be as in the days of olde, you will work the lords land, tend to his flocks and live in the hovel he has provided, and after his feasting there might be some left over for you.
Here is what I believe to be a big part of the problem. It isn't about the borders so much as there is so much political support behind those wishing to come here illegally that now rather than enforce the laws politicians would rather have authorities "catch and release" felons and others here illegally, rather than have groups such as La Rasa call them "racists". Personally, I see no racism in applying the laws equally to those from all nations. I know legal immigrants from many countries, yes, some from Mexico and central and South American nations as well. They did things the right way. Unfortunately, the media and the political complex it typically supports is also lawsuit-jumpy, and hence candidates who support the rule of law and enforcement thereof-seldom get much media and political support. Watch our elections and notice percentages of coverage. Theoretically the news is supposed to give equal time to each candidate and be neutral on who should or should not win. Unfortunately here in the U.S. the networks have lost much credibility, because this is not the case. It is clear as crystal not only who the networks WANT to win, but also based on the hugely disproportional coverage that in general, they intend to help him win. Too bad there is no substance behind the candidate. Too much of that going around, IMHO....Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Interesting point, although it should be noted that refugees are a completely different matter than those wishing to come here make (for them) a lot of money to send home and take advantage of what others pay for with no return. No one is asking anyone not to speak their native tongue, I would probably do the same. Th only thing asked is a conscious effort to learn the majority language as well. Most tourists can learn to ask where the restroom and order "two more beers, please" in just about any language in a few hours. It like people are being asked to speak with a convincing "American" accent or anything. Just as in your example of the English speaking neighborhood, that is perfectly fine, but then you should also speak enough Spanish in that situation to function within that society.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
Of course, if you are being hunted, and are evading or some such, this discussion is not exactly about that, either.
Gugi, I understand your premise that everything ties into money, but in this case, I feel it is irrelevant in most cases, although I've stated how I feel about illegal "immigration" earlier. Someone wishing to become a citizen or a resident alien (no other reason to stay here) is a liability if they refuse to learn rudimentary English, not to mention this is an indication of why one truly came to the US (or any other country...).
Much as in the past people would try to get married for money to speed up the citizenship/green card process (perhaps they still do) the government now has to ask all sorts of questions to see if someone got married for love....or convenience. Refusal to learn the language and expecting everyone else to cater to YOU vice chipping in like everyone does....is another indication one is here for convenience only.
The statement that Americans can just go somewhere where wages are lower is not true. Most of us cannot afford the plane ticket even if we wanted to-and Mexico DOES enforce it's labor laws, and it's borders (with bullets) They tell the US we should be more understanding and leave food etc. for illegals, meanwhile the Mexican army is posted on *their* southern border shooting people.... Good luck getting a job there.
NordJim, I agree with your frustration against the global corporations, and no, IMHO they are not truly "American" anymore than they are "British" or some other nation. They owe allegiance to no nation, and if something is beneficial to them, but illegal here...they will simply do so in another country where it is not illegal. Crossing an imaginary line in the dirt "to feed your family" does indeed make you a criminal, if that line is crossed in the middle of the night, with intention of taking advantage of that country. Think about it. If you go to your neighbor's house and he feeds you, you are a friend. If you sneak into your neighbor's yard, go into his house and take his food in the middle of the night-you are a criminal, even if you are doing so "to feed your family". Convenience store robbers have made the same claim before.
Crime (IMHO) on the part of global corporations who skirt the laws of one country by operating in another, does not in turn justify illegal actions of others, no matter how honest their intentions. People come here legally both to work and to live every single day. There is a long wait until citizenship perhaps, but in the mean time they can stay here. Other nations have to wait for a lottery and all sorts of other things.
All of which has nothing to do with the original post, perhaps, but everyone here knows I tend to be a sucker for this stuff.
Those immigrating should either know English or be willing to attempt learning it. I do not think fluency should be enforced, but a basic skills requirement is only fair, IMHO for someone claiming they really want to stay and either become an American or a permanent resident here. It isn't too much to ask a good faith effort from someone to demonstrate their honest intention of being a contributing member of society, and learning the language is one such method which also would help ease strain on many various entities a new Immigrant/resident Alien would encounter, such as EMS, Law Enforcement, Fire, hospital workers, teachers...the list goes on.
Doctors are taught medicine. *Linguists* are taught multiple languages. They shouldn't have to do both, IMHO just because someone does not have enough respect for our nation to at least try learning the basics. Such people, IMHO, are not welcome and have likely no intent of positive contribution to society. Doctors are sworn to help such people in spite of themselves. The rest of us, however, are not.
John P.
Hi Scott.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottS
Sorry in advance, btw for the off-topic bit, but here goes:
I personally have never had any issue with a "living wage". I am however skeptical that it would help. Saying a company has to pay U.S. citizens a particular amount, without requiring that company to pay its employees in OTHER countries the SAME equivalent amount-does nothing IMHO to solve the problem, but instead encourages companies sitting on the fence to send labor overseas. Raising the minimum wage here does nothing if workers have to compete for their livelihoods with products produced by those who work for so much less that were it done here the people in charge would be dragged out in handcuffs.
It's dirty and most of them do it. It doesn't make it right. Tariffs on such products might not raise what they pay their workers, and no doubt they'd have attorneys find ways around the laws, but eventually perhaps some of them would realize that if they have to pay the same, an American is just as competitive as a Chinese person, and if not, at least they would pay the foreign worker a fair wage.
Now, back to regularly scheduled programming, as I know this has nothing to do with languages spoken....
John P.
Indeed that's the wrong race. Economically the illegal immigration in US, the way it currently is, is affecting negatively the most unskilled people and pretty much positively everybody with more than high-school education.Quote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
Since we were just on the topic of international trade etc., I want to say that this to me seems a rather complex problem and I don't think anybody has a good solution that will make everyone happy. However, there was one US politician in the presidential primaries who said that that is something he is concerned with - how to reconcile these opposite requirements. I liked that. And I am not going to even be commenting why propaganda works, but it does, always did and probably always will. As the main character in one of my favorite movies would say 'Bummer'.
May be there will come the international equivalents of trade unions (I doubt it), since in the old days that's what counterbalanced the exploitation. I think at one point the unions have been helpful, but when few years ago I found my job in a multimillion UAW-initiated push to convert it to unionized I most certainly voted 'No'. Somehow the idea of fighting the various beurocratic problems with more, but different beurocracy didn't quite add up for me. Instead when a beurocrat decreased my pay by 30% and restricted the ways I could do a certain job I was doing, I just told him that I'm done - I even found and trained my replacement but warned the beurocrat that in 6 months he will either have to reverse things back to where they were, or everything will start costing him 2x more. Six months later it turned out I was correct and he had to reverse the salary and also spent 2x the money he thought he'd saved. But why I'm telling this story? Ah, yeah just to illustrate that the market does work fairly well without too much regulation.
In any case back to the original topic - there are 2 separate issues that I see getting mixed
(1) Should there be a language requirement for legal immigrants? Apparently that's the only thing that can be enforced, so let's look at it. Well are legal immigrants not wanting to learn english? Is it worth the overhead administering a test and deporting back those who fail? I suspect that the answer to these is 'No', meaning not worth having such requirement as the vast majority of legal immigrants are more than willing to learn at least working level english. Those who don't are naturally confined to jobs where this doesn't really matter, and it's really their own problem. I don't see why the society needs to intrude on everybody's life to deal with these few cases. If you believe the numbers are significant we can discuss that.
(2) Illegal immigration (aliens/felons/criminals...). Obviously these people are not going to be affected by any requirements to learn english - if the authorities can enforce the language thing they clearly could enforce their immigration status before that.
Perhaps the second group is the one that isn't being liked for not speaking english, or may be for all kinds of other reasons and the language part is just the fuse.
I agree with much of your statement.
I have issue with the idea that illegal immigration helps just about everyone with a high school diploma or above-it hurts all of us, because all of our taxes etc. pay for the social programs such people exploit, and an already taxed Social Security program is being paid to people who never paid into it at an alarming rate. This affects everyone equally. Unscrupulous employers, regardless of their intent or education, are ultimately at the root of this. If such employers did not hire people under-the-table "Oh they just want to work" they say-then everyone would be on an equal footing. One business would not be able to have unfair advantages over another due to illegally cheap labor, or various laws and restrictions being ignored because the employees do not exist, at least on paper...and when 40 illegal aliens clog the emergency room of a local hospital, using it for a clinic for stubbed toes and the sniffiles, which is required to treat THEM but will ask you sure as day for your proof of insurance-it comes out of someone's pocket. When that hospital later goes out of business, EVERYONE's hospital is out of business, and we all lost a service, not just the illegal aliens.
It hurts all of us, is what I guess I'm saying here.
The second part of your statement makes a lot of sense, although I want to point out that often people do not attempt to learn the language because, well, it is not required, and they never get around to it therefore; These are not the ones refusing to speak the language or even try. There is a difference IMHO.
John P.
I would think that many manufacturing jobs in the US already pay a living wage, so those companies that find that too expensive are already being driven out by current policy. Construction, by definition, needs to be local. Agriculture, service, and some other labor would probably be the main impacts. Crops need to be picked, hotel rooms need to be cleaned, and paying a living wage for such jobs would do away with the argument that citizens don't want them. It removes any incentive to hire illegals into them, especially if penalties for violations were quite high. We would need to be a bit more protectionist on Agriculture. Obviously, some things would get more expensive-- nothing is free.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnP
As a former occupier of one such job, they *used* to, however when housing and other prices go up and the wages do not (thanks in part to the 30 per apartment practice mentioned above) the same barely above minimum wage pay is suddenly much less desireable. In my particular case, the name was sold to the Chinese as I gather, because now when I go home, the old factories are closed, and when I see something I wonder if I may have made and look for the factory stamp somewhere-it typically now says, "made in China". I don't believe it is typically manufacturing/factory jobs going to illegals, rather these are being "outsourced" because some company or other felt minimum wage was too much to pay or some group of stockholders felt they could make a faster buck by selling off the name and letting the Chinese do the stuff with slave labor. Equally wrong. I also think in some cases unionized labor has gone a bit too far and corporations faced with paying exorbitant wages demanded by unions (or we'll walk out!) have gone with more competitive workers overseas. This is unfortunate, as in the long run, the union officials still make their money, but the employees they were supposed to protect and represent, lose. After all, businesses DO have to turn a profit. There has to be some middle ground and both sides of this have taken things to extremes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottS
One would think construction would have to be local, but unfortunately it seldom is. There is much use of illegal alien workers in the construction industry, and some of them even have secret "camps" set up on company property (which, when found, create much disturbance with pro and anti-illegal alien groups). Even decades ago, there was a certain construction contract to be awarded in the town my Grandmother lived in. Many people were quite excited about this as there were quite a few carpenters, bricklayers, laborers etc. happy at the prospect of work. The company that won the contract, then, to everyone's dismay, brought in illegal immigrants to do the job under the table and did not hire a single local resident. While I disagree with people sneaking across our border and so on, in this case I place the blame squarely on the employer. These actions are illegal, however they seldom get prosecuted or even challenged, because the politicians and officials fear being called "racist" for enforcing the law, even though it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with an employer exploiting people. Agriculture in some states is the main industry in that state. Allowing this to be done primarily by illegal alien workers is essentially saying it is ok to put that state's citizens out of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottS
I'm rambling, and this time for the sake of rambling. I actually agree with you. Forcing a living/fair wage for everything would filter out a lot of the profiteering done by many employers. There would be less support for "illegal immigrants who just want to work" and instead more support for REAL immigrants who actually have something decent to look forward to and a REAL paycheck, not a few dirty bills pushed into his hand by the modern day slavemaster who claims only to be helping those people do things Americans won't do.
Really bugs me. I used to live in San Diego, and I heard a woman on the radio complaining that her construction company only hired illegals because she couldn't find an American willing to do the work. She also claimed to pay 20 or 30 per hour. In reality it turns out she never listed the job, because as soon as this happened a score of people called wanting this job.
We aren't anymore afraid of work than people in any other country, (well, can't speak for Hollywood types and some politicians) we just need a fair shot at doing it. Immigrants-new Americans-should be just like the rest of us. If they want to speak some other language at home, that's fine. Learn the language of the rest of us, also, and welcome to the experience of being an American.
John P.
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Originally Posted by JohnP
I meant physically local. You don't generally mail order a three story building. You can bring in outside workers, or illegals, but you can't farm the job out to some Indian call center, or to a sweat shop in the Philippines.
I would never force anyone to learn a language or punish them if they failed. I think you start getting in to very dangerous territory when you start controlling language. Forced cultural assimilation is never too pretty when you read about it in the history books.
What I'd do is give people every opportunity to learn. Most will, or at least their kids will. They'll need the language to survive. If they can survive without it, why worry. But forcing people isn't wise politically. People don't like to be told what to do. Reward them instead if they become functional in the language.
I moved to Quebec when I was 19. Couldn't speak two sentences of French. I hate the little things the province does to force me to learn French. If I've learned it (I have to a functional degree), it's because I was inticed by the culture, friendly neighbours, pretty girls. It definitely was not the office de la langue francaise that made me semi-bilingual, though.
It's hard to tell just looking at the thread, but it SEEMs maybe a lot of the Americans here agree with the quote that started the thread, which makes sense. The U.S. wants to be a 'melting pot'. Other countries choose the 'mosaic'. "Becoming American" is a sub-plot of the American dream.
I would tentatively suggest that the U.S. may be better served by spending energy on teaching its current citizens a second language. There's a lot of evidence that being bilingual is good for the brain and the heart (to put it a little poetically). Speaking more objectively, bilingual students generally score higher on IQ tests than unilingual students and demonstrate greater 'tolerance' (a unfortunate but common term) or open-mindedness. As it turns out I think there are more and more bilingual Americans, which is wonderful.
The people have every opportunity to learn, and most learn just enough to survive and no more. They can survive without knowing much though because they have their own network of like-cultured and like-tongued friends, family, and coworkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swink
If the current laws that are already in place were actually enforced, legal immigrants would have to start working with other English speakers (because the illegal immigrants would be gone) and then they would have to learn more English just to get by, as you say.
The goal is to enforce the law and Oklahoma passed a law last year designed to give law enforcement more tools to work with in order to enforce the law. Even though immigration law itself did not change at all, many illegal immigrants have moved and are still moving (many moved even before the law went into effect.) Shady businesses whined and complained but now some of them have had to start hiring legal workers and/or pack up and move out. In Oklahoma, it is starting to pay for immigrants to be legal. I don't know if that's how it is elsewhere (I suspect not) but I'm glad some legislators around here are actually directing policy and passing laws according to the will of the voters
VIVA LA REVOLUCION !:):)
Mark.... if you're going to participate in this thread speak English puleeze ! :rant:Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
......:p:p:pQuote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
And now he is not talking and sticking his tongue out. How immature...Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
;)
In the area where I work there are a ton of old Portuguese guys who speak little or no English. They built half the houses in Toronto and used their wages to build good solid families and one of Toronto's best ethnic neighbourhoods. T. O. would be a d**ned sight poorer without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
Best Regards
goshawk
Butter it up and drag 'em through the garden.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I teach undergrad lab in a Major US university, you will be amazed how poor the writing and speaking skills of today's American youth is..
I agree on another hand that everyone needs to know a decent level of written and spoken English. For example the majority of Chinese students that come here have nonexisting English language skills, I wonder how they get good grades on their language tests TOEFL, GRE etc:confused:
I lived in Miami for years in an area known as 'Little Havana'. It had been all Anglo but 'white flight' and the influx of refugees changed it to being largely Cuban. Now all of Miami is predominantly Latino. Hard working and industrious people. Many of them weren't bilingual but they didn't have to be in that environment.
Now here in the WPB area Mexicans are coming in large numbers. I guess that is all over the USA from what I hear. I have a friend whose grandparents came over from Italy and Ireland. Obviously he is of Italian/Irish ancestry. Funny part is that he is always railing against immigrants and immigration. He doesn't see the irony of this.
I read in the history of these sometimes United States that anti immigration sentiment was high against Italians, Irish, Russians and what have you in the late 1800s early 1900s. Some things never change. I guess there is a tribal instinct that is an innate part of all of us.
I grew up in an unincorporated part of Ft. Lauderdale and post-Andrew the population in Broward exploded, as did the amount of Latin Americans. I think the issue with those older European generations was that they felt they did it the right way going through Ellis Island whereas Latin Americans have the stigma of having arrived illegally.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
My understanding is that all waves of non-english speaking immigrants went thru a generation before all of them were fully speaking english. The older people never learned, but their kids did, and it took a generation to do it. A good example is scandinavian and german immigrants who settled in the midwest in the 1800s. I personally enjoy the opportunity to speak spanish from time to time here in California.
I would venture to say that the majority of the Latin Americans in FL came here legally. I don't know that for sure but I think I'm correct. I'm not including the current influx of Mexicans who come looking for work. I have no idea what the percentages are for them one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by commiecat
Oh, I completely agree. It's just that growing up down there, I heard all-too-often comments about hopping fences or floating on rafts. I can relate to your comments about the older Italian/Irish people's thoughts about immigrants; I think that some of them feel that their ancestors are, inexplicably, more legitimate Americans than Latin Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Second post today that had something to do with the 30s 40s. The largest group of immigrants to the US were Germans. They were so eager to fit in they had schools to lose their accents so they could assimilate American culture. There were probably more German Americans fighting for the Allies than any other group. That FDR was a real radical:)
Mike