Western culture! How fortunate we are!

I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history. I think most people subscribe to the concept that truth and morality are not relative concepts; rather, they are immutable absolutes. So what is morally right today was morally right yesterday, and last year, and last century. Likewise, what is true today was true yesterday, and last year and last century. Moral relativism is not the favored moral concept of most people I know. And if that's the case, then the practice of slavery, institutionalized racism, de facto racism, gender discrimination, etc. were just as morally abhorrent at the time that were "officially" practiced as they would be if they were currently being practiced. And under that set of moral principles, there is nothing but cold comfort in making observations about "how far we have come." We should never have been "there" in the first place if we we're what we claim to be-a Nation established under God, by God-fearing, moral people. Millions of people had their lives completely ruined because of the exercise of raw power by the ruling majority. A majority that turned a blind eye to any notion of morality when it came to the treatment of minorities and women, but who instead sat in their pews every Sunday morning listening to their religious leaders preach on how the Bible actually countenences the practice of racial and gender discrimination. Decades go by, and people's families are torn apart by a ruling majority, aided by their government, who lack the moral compass and self-awareness to recognize the depravity of their "tradition" and "way of life". Decades go by, and the majority, and their government, continue to engage in beating, whipping, raping, hanging, and countless acts of agression against fellow citizens; citizens who never lived to see their holocaust end; who never received restitution for their forced labor; citizens who were forced to suffer constant insults to their human dignity without ever having had the opportunity to recivece reciprocal justice on those who kicked them, or spat on them. There was no opportunity for obtaining justice against the opressors. Opressors who sold the children of those they enslaved like mere chattel. No opportunity for those whose lives were wasted in subjugated imprisonment to see justice for having been forced to work the fields of their oppressors; and who raised the like their own children the sons and daughters of their oppressors.
What was sick and morally corrupt about what went on in this country, and what continues to be practiced at a lesser extent, was just as wrong 200 years ago as it is now.
So forgive me if I reject the idea that we should be proud of the fact that things are "better now". Too many people lived, suffered and died needlessly in subservience to the immoral legacy of this country's history. This country's institutionalized and personal practice of bigotry, hate, intolerance and prejudice, and the extreme suffering it has caused, should never have been practiced to begin with by a people who claimed to be a moral, God-fearing populace.
And that is why I have no patience for those who take comfort in "how far we have come". We should never have been "there" in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history. I think most people subscribe to the concept that truth and morality are not relative concepts; rather, they are immutable absolutes. So what is morally right today was morally right yesterday, and last year, and last century. Likewise, what is true today was true yesterday, and last year and last century. Moral relativism is not the favored moral concept of most people I know. And if that's the case, then the practice of slavery, institutionalized racism, de facto racism, gender discrimination, etc. were just as morally abhorrent at the time that were "officially" practiced as they would be if they were currently being practiced. And under that set of moral principles, there is nothing but cold comfort in making observations about "how far we have come." We should never have been "there" in the first place if we we're what we claim to be-a Nation established under God, by God-fearing, moral people. Millions of people had their lives completely ruined because of the exercise of raw power by the ruling majority. A majority that turned a blind eye to any notion of morality when it came to the treatment of minorities and women, but who instead sat in their pews every Sunday morning listening to their religious leaders preach on how the Bible actually countenences the practice of racial and gender discrimination. Decades go by, and people's families are torn apart by a ruling majority, aided by their government, who lack the moral compass and self-awareness to recognize the depravity of their "tradition" and "way of life". Decades go by, and the majority, and their government, continue to engage in beating, whipping, raping, hanging, and countless acts of agression against fellow citizens; citizens who never lived to see their holocaust end; who never received restitution for their forced labor; citizens who were forced to suffer constant insults to their human dignity without ever having had the opportunity to recivece reciprocal justice on those who kicked them, or spat on them. There was no opportunity for obtaining justice against the opressors. Opressors who sold the children of those they enslaved like mere chattel. No opportunity for those whose lives were wasted in subjugated imprisonment to see justice for having been forced to work the fields of their oppressors; and who raised the like their own children the sons and daughters of their oppressors.
What was sick and morally corrupt about what went on in this country, and what continues to be practiced at a lesser extent, was just as wrong 200 years ago as it is now.
So forgive me if I reject the idea that we should be proud of the fact that things are "better now". Too many people lived, suffered and died needlessly in subservience to the immoral legacy of this country's history. This country's institutionalized and personal practice of bigotry, hate, intolerance and prejudice, and the extreme suffering it has caused, should never have been practiced to begin with by a people who claimed to be a moral, God-fearing populace.
And that is why I have no patience for those who take comfort in "how far we have come". We should never have been "there" in the first place.

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Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!

By the way, It's a good thing we saw the error of our ways, don't you think?

It's a bit of a glass half empty/full topic of discussion, this. All societies (Western, Eastern, whatever) will have points to cheer about and ones to be damned ashamed of. Seems to me whether you cheer or boo depends firmly where you find yourself in such a society.

What I find interesting about this thread so far (apologies, slightly :OT), is the very obvious pride that citizens in the US have of their country. That's something we Brits used to have but, very very sadly, seems to be an exteremely rare thing now. Which leads me to another tought... what execatly IS 'western society'? Since this is Mark's thread, we should let him try to define that part of his statement. (And if that's not a posioned chalice, I don't know what is! :roflmao)

Anyway, back on topic...

I'm proud of... SHEFFIELD STEEL of course, d'uh! ;)

I'm not proud of... bureacracy. Has anyone ever wondered why you have to go around the houses for anything in India (get a ticket for this, get a stamp for that, go to the Shroff's office to validate it, blah blah blah)? Yep, the Brits worst export ever was a bottomless pit of bureaucracy.

"By the way, It's a good thing we saw the error of our ways, don't you think?"

---Yeah, it's always a good thing to admit to our little faux pas. Nothing to be too concerned about, really.

What time does "America's Got Talent" go on tonite???

Quote:

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I've always found it...ummm...interesting when folks talk about "how far we've come", etc. when addressing, and in my view attempting to dismiss or minimize, the unpleasant aspects of this country's history.

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Your view is pessimistic, and doesn't reflect at all what I was attempting to do when I talked about how far we've come. We can choose to better our own nation because we have a Constitution which emboldens us to act on our freedoms. The Constitution didn't limit the freedom of blacks or women. The USA is a result of the choices of its citizens because of the way it was founded. Hasn't the US become increasingly free because of that principle?

Maybe not. I do know several women though who voted for a black man in the last democratic presidential primary. That should put a smile on your face :)

I quibble not with the points that "things have gotten better" or "we've come a long way" as this nation's history has progressed.
My point was addressed to those who try to make the argument that this nation was somehow imbued with Divine Greatness at its founding, through divine inspiration and guidance. If that was the case, then why did God not put it upon the hearts of our forefathers to treat minorities and woman like equals instead of inferiors?
Maybe it just skipped His mind...who knows.
It's just a darn shame that it's taken so long for wrongs that should never have been there in the first place to be righted. If someone puts his foot on my throat and holds it there for, oh say 200 years, should I be grateful and appreciative to that person when he finally decides to remove it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

I quibble not with the points that "things have gotten better" or "we've come a long way" as this nation's history has progressed.
My point was addressed to those who try to make the argument that this nation was somehow imbued with Divine Greatness at its founding, through divine inspiration and guidance. If that was the case, then why did God not put it upon the hearts of our forefathers to treat minorities and woman like equals instead of inferiors?
Maybe it just skipped His mind...who knows.
It's just a darn shame that it's taken so long for wrongs that should never have been there in the first place to be righted. If someone puts his foot on my throat and holds it there for, oh say 200 years, should I be grateful and appreciative to that person when he finally decides to remove it?

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You will find an argument any where I believe!
I scanned over the posts in my thread and did not find one person saying the things that you claim that you were addressing, which leads me to believe that your only purpose for posting in my thread is to cause problems instead of address solutions!
I will thank you to no longer post in my thread!

Mark

@BillyJeff:
Please don't rant or goad people. That is not what this thread is for, and that's not necessary to make a point. This forum is also not a pulpit from which to deliver fire and brimstone sermons.

Also (and this is just a matter of being courteous) if you feel the need to write lengthy posts, please break them up into paragraphs because half a page of dense text is not only difficult to read, it is also hard for people to respond to individual items in your post because they'd have to manually cut text into paragraphs.

@everyone:
it takes two to tango. don't reply to people if you don't think it will go anywhere constructive.

Oh, and Trumpers and Truefitt & Hill... I'm proud of those too.

And the BBC. And the NHS. And Babe Ruth.

Wait, he's not one of ours, nix that.

How about this:
I am grateful for the opportunity Western culture, and the US Constitution, affords me to express my views without fear of censorship or retribution, and to express the truth as I view it.

Better?

btw: What time does "Dancing With The Stars" go on?

That's better :)

Tow the line, billy!

I'm happy to live in a culture that, for the most part, I can put on our country's uniform and not have people shrink in fear in our own country of what we might do to them.
That some (thankfully not all) feel quite safe in their disagreement with what I do for a profession, some even going so far as to ad lib their version of what they think that is.
I am allowed to own property as are other citizens.
People are even allowed to voice their protests in public (as well as on public forums) without secret police making them "disappear". Thanks to the successes of Western culture it has become desireable to emulate in other nations also; I have friends from all over the world, some online admittedly, and others in person, from not only my own country and Western countries, but Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Hungary and even Iraq and one from Iran. This would have never happened 20 years ago I think, not to mention, I think the openness has much to do with the example our culture (if not we in particular) have set.
Sure there's lots of bad I could point out, too, but overall I think we have it good.


I just hope we aren't in the process of throwing it away; it's seemed to work so far, and not just for our country. Let's not throw it out in exchange for any of the systems other countries are already throwing out in favor of one like this one.

John P.

I'm happy to live in a culture where I can have a weekend like the one I just did and not worry about a damn thing. I'll lay it all out for everyone so it's a little more clear.


Saturday: SWMBO and I cuddled until about 11:00 AM, then drove 100 miles to have lunch with my family and do some shopping.

Sunday: SWMBO and I didn't do a thing but read together almost the entire day. I made lunch and a leisurely dinner. I finished a fantastic book, and she did too.

Monday: Another late day, we cuddled for a long time. I performed a much needed repair on my truck, but otherwise lazed about for most of the day.

Besides being the epitome of lazy, it was a great weekend. How many people in China can enjoy what I did?

Dang! That's a whole lot of cuddlin'. I'm jealous. :cry:

I reckon the Chinese cuddle too. All weekend if they want. Or should I say, if they have the privilege, in terms of being able to take the weekend off work, which plenty of people in Western Society can't afford to either.

China is going through an explosive growth of class-based society right now. The new middle class is affluent, able to travel abroad at will (as the hoardes of mainland Chinese tourists in Europe demonstrate), and has many of the trappings of Western Society. The Cultural Revolution is hard to discern now. Maybe China wasn't such a good example? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majurey

Dang! That's a whole lot of cuddlin'. I'm jealous. :cry:

I reckon the Chinese cuddle too. All weekend if they want. Or should I say, if they have the privilege, in terms of being able to take the weekend off work, which plenty of people in Western Society can't afford to either.

China is going through an explosive growth of class-based society right now. The new middle class is affluent, able to travel abroad at will (as the hoardes of mainland Chinese tourists in Europe demonstrate), and has many of the trappings of Western Society. The Cultural Revolution is hard to discern now. Maybe China wasn't such a good example? ;)

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As far as cuddling goes, they more than likely have not been married that long. Itll pass.:roflmao As far as the Chinese traveling abroad goes, you can bet its the affluent party members and not the average joe, or is that average lee/chin/po or whatever. Isnt it amazing how the classless proletariat of the people are now so materialistic and status oriented?

Yeah trust me on the cuddling.
After 6 years of marriage and 2 little kids, You'll do less cuddling than that in a month.

Oh and about China: politically you have to pay lip service to the communist party.
But economically, china is like europe during the industrial revolution. Anything goes if you are rich, and you have to bribe local officials to get anything done. And as long as industry is bringing in new money, all will be forgiven.

China atm is just like Europe, a hundred years ago, but with a different political system.

What do I like most of the freedoms granted me by when & where I was born? I am proud of being British & incandescently proud of being a Welshman in Wales.

Healthcare: I would not be here if it were not for our National Health Service. It is free to all at the point of delivery & gives you what you need to live a comfortable, if not healthy life. Subject to budget of course.

Freedom of Religion: Some of my ancestors were executed for their nonchristian beliefs. The most trouble I will ever encounter is an overzealous evangelist. It is not really bothersome, because I am free to tell said evangelical nutter that I believe him/her to be wrong as I have my own gods.

Freedom of Association & Intercourse: Subject to distance & diposition, I am free to talk to any other person I want, about whatever we wish to converse

Finally, although this has slipped slightly in recent years (cheers Tony & George): Being treated as a civilised, rational & repected person whenever I travel abroad. Our Empire is still remembered kindly

How is that Mark?:w

I would say we are very fortunate to be able to cuddle with whomever we want, as long as it's by mutual consent... The unmarried and newly married, of course...

And for the free market too - QuickOrange, do you rent out your wife for heterosexual cuddling - I think I could use some and she must be very good!:roflmao

We don't get to spend very much time together, hence the overload on cuddling. Gugi, I don't know if you could handle her. She costs me plenty as it is:roflmao

I think if you compared relative social classes between me (technically poverty) and the poverty Chinese, you won't find them taking 3 days off. It's true, the city folk are moving up in the world. Maybe I should have said North Korean or Peruvian or something like that.

EDIT: Bruno, that's why we don't have kids. Not that either of us will die without lazy days together, we just like to have that option available if wanted/needed :D

I find this to be extremely relevant to your conversation: somehow I doubt most will take the time to listen to it.
Dan Gilbert: Why are we happy? Why aren't we happy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I find this to be extremely relevant to your conversation: somehow I doubt most will take the time to listen to it.
Dan Gilbert: Why are we happy? Why aren't we happy?

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Man, I would be soooo happy if I owned a beemer!

James.

Great video. I watched it, and I think I'll stick it in my favorites.

Though I still think I'd rather be happy about having lots of quality time every week, than being happy about being happy with what I get with the current limitations of having small kids. :confused: :thinking: I think.

To QuickOrange: yeah as much as I love my kids, they really put a cramp on the old quality time experience ;) Somehow priorities change with swmbo. My best friend has the same problem, so I doubt that this is just me.
The thing is, if I could choose to go back the old situation but without the kids, I wouldn't do it. I love them too much.

I completely understand. I know there'd be no way I would regret having them, but I also know that I'm not ready to share yet. It's really interesting though watching people change when they have kids. I'm at the age where everyone around me it seems is having kids, and the transformation is remarkable.

Happiness may be what you make it, but I can think of a few things that would help my happy factor right now. I'm not saying completely happy, just baby steps. Lots of little happys makes a big happy, right?:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Man, I would be soooo happy if I owned a beemer!

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hey, what happened with the accent and the goatee!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Though I still think I'd rather be happy about having lots of quality time every week, than being happy about being happy with what I get with the current limitations of having small kids. :confused: :thinking: I think.

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wrong! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

The thing is, if I could choose to go back the old situation but without the kids, I wouldn't do it. I love them too much.

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much better! as we just learned being stuck with them is what synthesizes the happiness :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I'm not saying completely happy, just baby steps. Lots of little happys makes a big happy, right?:D

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no, actually you need two adolescent happys that are stuck together... oh, sorry, you just need the stork of happy

Yeah, very nice video, I've wondered about that for some time now.

Is it ironic that the freedoms of "western culture" allowed those researchers to investigate the way the mind works and find out, rather happily it seems, that freedom is counterproductive to happiness?:)

Who is more qualified than myself to know what makes me happy? At least allow me the freedom to find out for myself. If I decide I don't like freedom, I am free to join the communist party

There goes your prefrontal cortex making a mess of things, the "knee jerk" reaction is to err on the side of choice and freedom.

But to be honest, from a philosophical perspective I'd have to say that true happiness lies within free society, everyone else is just making the best of the situation at hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Who is more qualified than myself to know what makes me happy?

---

A Harvard academic, proudly sponsored by BMW, obviously.

Quote:

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At least allow me the freedom to find out for myself. If I decide I don't like freedom, I am free to join the communist party

---

Or simply switch off the brain and let economics and capitalism control your life.

James.

But... I'm part of capitalism. I control other people's lives - that's what makes me happy :)

Gentlemen,
my view from down under is about the personal freedoms we all enjoy, my great fear is the nanny state, and the insufferable political correctness. I suspect it is swings and roundabouts.
If any of you get a chance read Winston Churchills " History of the English Speaking Peoples" if gives a great veiw over the centuries of how our lives have improved, and how much blood was spilled to earn our current way of life. America features greatly in the latter chapters.
In observation of my first comment, it seems you need a view of history over a much larger frame than ones own life time to get a proper perspective of how life is improving, as so often in our own short lives the opposite may seem to be the go.


Cheers

Gordon

Perhaps you should relisten to the portion related to quote of Adam Smith fellas

I really don't find anything ironic, plenty of science, philosophy, mysticism(ie religion and related pursuits) have been conducted under non democratic rule.

I would agree that a broad view of history is needed to form valid opinions on what is good and right and necessary but I tend to disagree that the world has been improved; all you can say is that it has changed;)

Early in the thread it was mentioned that compassion in war was an exclusively Christian ideal

You may not like this translation of the Tao Te Ching. Chapeter 31:
weapons are the tools of violence
all decent men detest them

weapons are the tools of fear
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint
peace is his highest value
if the peace has been shattered
how can he be content?
his enemies are not demons
but human beings like himself
he doesn't wish them personal harm
nor does he rejoice in victory
how could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

he enters a battle gravely
with sorrow and with great compassion
as if he were attending a funeral


or this excerpt from 18:
when the country falls into chaos
patriotism is born

I took this out of the Hog Le Hou, and I don't know what chapter because it's just scribbled on the back of a post it note:

Chaos creates dire necessities and out of it nations are born

Victory is usually better than defeat and self-defense is usually better than death

Without weapons, common people become the victims of those who would take their freedom by force

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

weapons are the tools of violence
all decent men detest them

---

too bad not all men are decent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

weapons are the tools of fear
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint

---

so he should have weapons, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

peace is his highest value
if the peace has been shattered
how can he be content?
his enemies are not demons
but human beings like himself
he doesn't wish them personal harm
nor does he rejoice in victory
how could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

---

because to kill is better than to die?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

he enters a battle gravely
with sorrow and with great compassion
as if he were attending a funeral

---

But he is going to do his best that it isn't his.
And frivolously going into battle is not the best way to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

or this excerpt from 18:
when the country falls into chaos
patriotism is born

---

Personally I think it is the other way around.
If you can get people to become fiercly patriotic, they will also be fiercely agressive against anything that is not patriotic.
From that point it is easy enough to make them do what you want by telling them what's patriotic and what's not.

Hi Bruno,
What exactly do you think I was trying to say?

I wonder because I find your responses to be in general agreement with my beliefs.

The sort of patriotism you describe at the end of your post sounds to me like the same fervor that drives this thread.;)

Consider the contradiction of warrior monk, "The life giving sword", the possibility of a compassionate murder.

Consider the differences between the totalitarianism of the Victorian zoo, and the democratic republic of our kinder gentler modern zoos. The latter is far better for the inhabitants, but not really "free". That is the sort of freedom I feel as my experience.