Pandoras Box?

I really have a lot of mixed emotions regarding the Big 3. Emotions have no place in thinking about financial issues but it's hard to ignore them. I grew up in Detroit until age 7 and then the suburmbs of Detroit in a litle 900 sq.ft. bungalow in a blue collor sub. Dad was the odd one making the fire department a career after a short emplyment with Chrysler.

Everyone worked for one of the big 3 or a related industry like Fisher Body. Exery Christmas we went to the Ford Rotunda, every summer Greenfield Village or the Rotunda to ride the 'Test Track' I can't hardly think of my childhood without something of the auto heritage seeping in. Like Moms black 57 two door Ford, a boyfriends 67 Chevy. Dad brought home an Edsel which we didn't keep, also a push button transmission on a Plymouth (I think?). I learned to drive a Ford Fairlane and about gave Dad permaent whip-lash. I toured all the plants in school. It permeated life like the stonevutters in a movie years ago.

If you or I mismanage our finances, who will reward us for being irresponsible? I know if I were to bounce a check the Bank charges me a penalty, they don't offer me a $100 reward. I think there has to be strings attached or boundaries for the companys who receive tax paye rfunds. Let the CEO's underwrite the cost of their junkets.
Sue

If you or I mismanage our finances we aren't responsible for the job loss of millions of people nor the impact that has on the economy, this little folksy thing of comparing the financial industry or the automotive industry to ones personal finances is not an accurate analogy.

The automotive industry accounts for hundreds of thousands of jobs (maybe millions), tens and hundreds of billions of dollars of GDP, and the economic well-being of whole regions.

With judicious economic incentive, and perhaps some economic assistance for a bit, this portion of the economy can not only be saved; it can help lead the way into an energy future that gets away from foreign imports, brings energy jobs back to this country, and takes a huge first step toward reversing global warming.

What do you think? Help the auto industry out, or let 'em crash. Your choice.

(Tick-tick-tick-tick-tick)

j

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

What do you think? Help the auto industry out, or let 'em crash. Your choice.

(Tick-tick-tick-tick-tick)

j

---

crash. if a ceo runs a company into the ground, jobs will always be lost. how big does the company have to be before the taxpayers have to cover his ass? where do we draw the line?

in my opinion, the american auto industry hasn't been competitive in my lifetime... i think it's been going on momentum alone. the world changes and people want different stuff, and so companies die and new ones are born. the only difference here is the number of people employed.

if detroit dies, it will suck for a lot of people. i'm in no way denying that. it truly will. but those industries haven't been globally competitive in decades. they WILL die, eventually, and be replaced. it's the natural order of things. dragging it out and making the death slower (on the taxpayers' dime!) solves nothing, it's only a stalling tactic.

if a company can't succeed on it's own merits (after the first couple of years it's running) then i see no reason to artificially keep it alive.

pull the plug and let it die with a little dignity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

crash. if a ceo runs a company into the ground, jobs will always be lost. how big does the company have to be before the taxpayers have to cover his ass? where do we draw the line?

in my opinion, the american auto industry hasn't been competitive in my lifetime... i think it's been going on momentum alone. the world changes and people want different stuff, and so companies die and new ones are born. the only difference here is the number of people employed.

if detroit dies, it will suck for a lot of people. i'm in no way denying that. it truly will. but those industries haven't been globally competitive in decades. they WILL die, eventually, and be replaced. it's the natural order of things. dragging it out and making the death slower (on the taxpayers' dime!) solves nothing, it's only a stalling tactic.

if a company can't succeed on it's own merits (after the first couple of years it's running) then i see no reason to artificially keep it alive.

pull the plug and let it die with a little dignity.

---

So I guess we'll buy the cars that free us from foreign oil from the Koreans? I'll put you down as okay with that.

j

The cattle are just coming in from the pasture and are lining up at the trough. There will be no end to this. The govt will just keep printing more money and borrowing more from China. One day the devil will have his due and all these foreign investors will make demands we won't be able to meet.

Instead of foreign hoards sacking this country like what happened to Rome we'll just have a giant distressed country sale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hutch

If you or I mismanage our finances we aren't responsible for the job loss of millions of people nor the impact that has on the economy, this little folksy thing of comparing the financial industry or the automotive industry to ones personal finances is not an accurate analogy.

---

I agree with the premise, the example is flawed as far as the damage, but will add this: While my bank account won't ruin millions of lives, my attitude of poor fiscal health is the same symptom of the disease we see writ large across the nation. Where, indeed, do we draw the line? The bailout is a gimmick used to pacify and castigate, capriciously doled out to those whom the Fed considers worthy, and in order to help us maintain confidence in their shell game. The fall of the mighty institutions would be a horrible thing. Propping them up on the rotted shell of money on credit is only going to make that fall worse when it does come. Come it will. Everything, everything always comes back around (except for that guy that owes me 20 bucks). I would prefer to see the government (I can't believe I'm saying it but it's true) take the money and simply buy the houses and give them to the homeowners, rather than a cyclical "loan" of up to 733 billion that will perpetually be spent, with the credit limit raised as needed, by a government that cannot manage its own house. The piper will present his bill, and the longer we stave it off, the worse it will be when it comes due.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

So I guess we'll buy the cars that free us from foreign oil from the Koreans? I'll put you down as okay with that.

j

---

aha! a false dichotomy, eh?
False Dichotomy

there are plenty of non-Korean cars in the world. heck, there are plenty of good non-american cars made right here in america! (honda, for instance)

i gotta admit, oversimplifying my position sure does make me look bad, though. nice try.
/enjoys this spirited, yet gentlemanly debate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

aha! a false dichotomy, eh?
False Dichotomy

there are plenty of non-Korean cars in the world. heck, there are plenty of good non-american cars made right here in america! (honda, for instance)

i gotta admit, oversimplifying my position sure does make me look bad, though. nice try.
/enjoys this spirited, yet gentlemanly debate

---

I used "Korean" to mean "Non-American."

So how about this?

So I guess we'll buy the cars that free us from foreign oil from non-American sources?

And for the ones we actually manufacture here, we'll ship the profits to Osaka.

Better?

j

I won't argue about the aircraft industry any more. It may not be as big as the automotive industry, but it's at least growing and not deeply in the red. Check the numbers- you'll see it's on the rise. Even Boeing is far outpacing Airbus.

Jim, I say let it crash. All the pieces of the automotive puzzle will still be available, and some enterprising investor will come along and restart the process. There will be a temporary loss of work, but how is it any different from the strikes? The newly reborn marques will rehire the people that lost their jobs by necessity, and things will be back to normal. All they have to do is what the Japanese did (interesting reading for anyone interested).