The conflict in Gaza.

As I am from the generall area (S W Asia/middle east) I might give some perspective maybe..

Anyway media in Sweden depict the conflict just as Kristofer said they do in Norway, i.e. on the palestinian side. In my view it was Hamas that started the whole thing by launching rockets at Israel. Israel has the right to protect itiself and it's citizens, just as they did in Lebanon a couple of years ago. It is unfortunate and a pitty that civilians have been killed on both sides. And here we can definitly say that the Israelis are responsible. However Hamas are to blame (as well) for this as they deliberatly involove the civilaian population and make them targets.

This is Israel vs Hamas not against the palestinian people. Fatah on the West Bank have quite good relations with israel and if I'm not wrong Israel gives the largest financial aid to the palestinians, not the arab countries.

The only solution that I see is two separate states and Jerusalem to be considered a neutral zone or an international zone. However Hamas and other islamist organizations do not recognize Israel, so there is clearly a problem with having Hamas as administratiors in the palestinian areas(only Gaza after the internal fight with Fatah). But then again they were elected by the people mostly due to that the people were fed up with the corruption of Fatah..

I'm not planning on getting into a debate on this. Especially in a public forum, from my warm office, while people are dying. I will say, it saddens me that Norway would recognize the Hamas as anything but a terrorist organization. Their primary objective is to eradicate Israel.

It wasn't the Israeli's that ignored the cease-fire. You kick a bear long enough, and he decides to tear you to pieces, whose fault is it?

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I disagree. There is more than one type of Diplomacy. Take away the Hamas support base, and you take away their power. And you do not have to annihilate hundreds of thousands of people to take away a support base. You simply offer them something better.

James.

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If we want to take away Humas's support base the the best way would be to bomb Iran back to the stone age. Hopefully Israel can get to this next line item on their to-do list.

What can we offer them. They have already been promised riches in this life and paradise in the next by their leaders for pursuing exactly the actions and attitudes we decry. How can we compete with that? There is nothing better.

Theres the old saying: "some would create a desert and call it peace" well that whole area is already a desert, so how can you go wrong:)

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

If we want to take away Humas's support base the the best way would be to bomb Iran back to the stone age. Hopefully Israel can get to this next line item on their to-do list.

What can we offer them. They have already been promised riches in this life and paradise in the next by their leaders for pursuing exactly the actions and attitudes we decry. How can we compete with that? There is nothing better.

Theres the old saying: "some would create a desert and call it peace" well that whole area is already a desert, so how can you go wrong:)

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I am totaly for a regime change in Iran followed by splitting up iran between it's many different ethnic groups. The whole middle east needs a redrawing of the map as this is the origin of most conflicts. The borders we have today were first created on paper in the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916. the agreement of what how the allies would carve up the ottoman empire among them selves after they would win the war (which was not very clear that they would in 1916). But later in 1923 the current borders were decided upon (that are not too different from the Sykes-Picot agreement's).

What must be remembered is that these borders were not created for and by the people on ground, they were created for the europeans (Britain and France most notably) to suit their needs and interests, iraq being a perfect example with four distinct cultural regions: the marshlands in the south, "the real Iraq" (as this was the name only for the area from Basra to Baghdad/Samarra), the district or Jazira in the north east of baghdad with a strong christian tradition and lastly Kurdistan with a totaly distinct language, culture and ethicity. But anyway the problem with this new map that was created by and for the europeans was that the europeans left! And behind them they left the problems we now face today.

Unfortunately, you are all wrong. This is a subject that I have been following very closely for many years. The mainstream media, especially in the US, is very biased towards Israel and facts that contradict Israel's propaganda claims never make it through the filter. There are alternate sources of information, but one has to make an effort to find them. Information Clearing House is a good place to start.

As regards the details of the Israel/Palestinian conflict, there is no better source than Norman Finkelstein. In several books, Dr. Finkelstein has demonstrated that Israel would like everyone to think that the situation is complicated when it is, in fact, very simple. Since 1967, the entire world (except the US, Israel and several Micronesian countries like Palau and the Marshall Islands) have been unanimous on the solution to the conflict. If Israel returns to its 1967 borders, there will be peace. The Arab League has said it, even Hamas has said it. Israel doesn't want peace. Israel wants the land with no Arabs on it.

The attempt to paint the current slaughter as a conflict between equals is obscene. In five years, Hamas rockets have killed 17 Israelis. In the same period, Israel has killed thousands of Palestinians. It was not Hamas that broke the cease fire, but Israel when it bombed Gaza on November 4th. Gaza is the world's largest concentration camp and Hamas's pitifully inadequate rockets are a gesture of protest. It should be noted that the famous city of Siderot, which is suffering so much from Hamas rockets, sits on Arab land that was stolen by the Israelis in the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948.

On a personal note, I attended Jewish parochial schools through my first year in college. Many of my highschool friends are now settlers in the West Bank. My father and brother are both rabbis and Zionists. I know these people like the back of my hand, or should I say, my circumsized p***s. These people are dangerous religious fanatics and racists, who sincerely believe that non-Jews are animals worthy of slaughter. They have a well-oiled propaganda machine that churns out hundreds of newspaper articles every day about how complicated the situation is. Unfortunately for the US, which is paying for all of this, it isn't complicated at all. It's about cruel people who want the land and know that they can get away with murder.

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Originally Posted by Chimensch

Unfortunately, you are all wrong. .

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Of course we are!:gaah:I should've seen it before now!:gaah::gaah:


Ah well, live and learn!:gth




The israelis have a right to protect themselves just as I would have the right to knock somebody on their ass if they kept kicking me in the shin!
You don't provoke a sleeping lion and expect that there will be no consequences!

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Originally Posted by JMS

The israelis have a right to protect themselves just as I would have the right to knock somebody on their ass if they kept kicking me in the shin!
You don't provoke a sleeping lion and expect that there will be no consequences!

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If you're going to talk about rights, keep in mind that the Palestinians also have rights that are expressed in the Declaration on Human Rights, many UN resolutions and the decisions of the International Court of Justice, most recently regarding the illegality of the wall that Israel is building around the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians have all the law on their side. The "right" that you are talking about is "Might makes right".

I have simply expressed my view of what is going on. The difference between us is that I have done my homework and you are shooting from the hip based on an emotional, knee-jerk reaction. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. However, as an American taxpayer, you are the one footing the bill for this carnage and you might want to take a closer look at whether "knocking the Palestinians on their ass" is in your best interest.

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Originally Posted by Chimensch

The difference between us is that I have done my homework and you are shooting from the hip based on an emotional, knee-jerk reaction. .

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Ahh yes! Of course you are right again! It never even occurred to me to give it a moments thought before I typed my response! Gosh, how silly of me:gaah:
I'll be more careful in the future and actually consider what I have to say before I say it!

Thank you once again for pointing out the error of my ways!

I'll just stand in the corner here until I have something pertinent to say!

Keep it cool gents.

In this world devoid of black and white, everything is grey, and you are both right.

- JS is right: Hamaz knew or should have known that firing rockets at Israel would result is severe retaliation.
- Chimensch is right: What Israel is doing to the Palestinians (and has done for a long time) is at best disgraceful and at worst no better than what the Nazis did to them, minus the death camps.

So you both have a point.
And the only way out of it is if everybody decides to cease fire unconditionally and moves on with their lives.
But that is not going to happen any time soon, sadly.

The facts that Chimensch has laid before are unbiased, simple, basic and little understood by the majority.

Facts always upset and confuse the issue. What do they say, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I remember on a visit to America explaining to an intelligent woman how the money she put into the plastic bucket while singing Irish tunes in a bar in downtown New York ended up paying for the bombs that Irish terrorists were using to attack defenseless citizens in the United Kingdom. She didn't really understand or want the facts to get in the way of her evenings entertainment.

Still, that not dissimilar English/Irish situation has thankfully resolved itself (I hope) and I trust that after the spilling of blood, the Israeli/Palestinian situation can also be resolved so that the ordinary people can get on with their lives in peace.

The route cause it strikes me is always religious extremism. It's not who pays for the bombs that really matters, but the man who fervently believes they are 100% correct in throwing them.