Thread: What is your definition of "spam" versus marketing?

I'm seriously asking because I'd like to hear some opinions--particularly from the mods and Lynn--on what they think is "spam" and where they draw the line between that and internet marketing.

Before you start slamming internet marketing, let me just say that this board and others are excellent examples of internet marketing at it's finest, as they promote a product while providing some good, solid information.

Oh, and I make a living doing internet marketing. And I am most definitely NOT a "spammer."

Has anyone looked up "spam" yet?

It does have a very specific legal meaning, as it is currently illegal under US federal laws.

OK, you can scroll down if you want...




















"Spam" means to send unwanted emails to strangers with the express purpose of promoting a product or service.

"Spam" USED to be a subset of internet marketing BEFORE spam became illegal. Now we internet marketers use double-opt-in email lists, to make sure we don't send you email you don't consent to have.

I'm asking because I just had a VERY unpleasant experience at a knife board during the last week or so, resulting in very bad experiences with one self-styled "Supermod", 2 knife makers (one of whom I spent money with, the other I was just looking and asked for more details, yet I STILL felt sorry for his "friend with cancer" so I sent "friend with cancer" all the cash I had in my wallet bigger than 1's--it added up to $85--in cash. )

So long story short, because I posted with my website URL in my sig line, I was warned and then LIFETIME BANNED and I may have been libeled as being a "spammer", or "spamming" or sending "spam".


I am very upset about this, since I do not have anything to do with "spam", which is a criminal activity.

So what do YOU call "spam"?

As with all things, there is a time and a place, and internet marketing outside of its proper place or time is Spam. I am a member of more than one board that forbids commercial links in sigs--and that is certainly their right.

Spam does have a legal definition, but that is not the absolute end--it's a new word, with strong social ramifications, and it will continue to grow and evolve as some marketers become more and more invasive and use more and more subterfuge to insert their marketing message into online discourse.

I agree that spam has different meanings other than just the legal dictionary definition. Spam to many just means unwanted advertisements. For example, I know that some knife forums pay the bills with advertisements and board sponsors, so they don't allow any type of commercial advertisement, be it in sig lines or elsewhere. This is only fair to the advertisers; if you get to advertise free and they pay $750 per year, then that's a bum deal for the advertisers.

Depending on how prolific of a poster you are, you may actually be recieving more attention from readers than their banner advertisements. Some consider it advertising if you push your product within your posts also. Look up "Ken's Gizmo" on knifeforums.com for examples.

If you were warned and persisted with the offense resulting in a ban, then there ya go. Due to the ideas of freedom and anonymity often associated with many aspects of the internet, some people feel that moderation/regulation in forums such as SRP or KF is a form of oppression, but we need to be aware that these forums are privately owned and requre membership to be able to post. Moderators need to be able to keep the conversation and content of the forums in line with the philosophy and goals of that forum. There are some knife-making websites that I don't like to visit because language is totally unregulated, and many of the guys there have basically porn for their avatars. To each their own, I guess, but leave the porn on the porn sites.

Spam, to you as an internet marketer, probably has a much different meaning than it does ot the owner of a knife forum. Even here on this forum, we call posters who just post stupid links to "how much are the nike shoes" or something like that a spammer. This doesn't meet the criteria set forth as an "unwanted email", but it's spam to us at any rate.

I think when we are heavily involved with any specific topic, be it hobby or professional, we are more sensitive to the nomenclature applicable to that topic. I like knives, too. If my brother used the term "Sharpening Steel" I might even correct him and inform him why it's actually a "Honing Steel" instead. He would listen to my spiel and say "Whatever, I'll call it a sharpening steel." I think this is what you're up against when you talk about spam. For people like us, it's a big difference, but for the other 99% of the earths population, we're just splitting hairs.

Marketing used to be a term for trying to bring a product at the attention of potential buyers.
Sadly, marketeers have turned the term into an euphemism for telling lies and bending the truth in order to sell things to people, regardless they need those things or not.
Spam is the virtual equivalent of the unsolicited adverts, that marketeers mail to my home address daily. Unfortunately, I can't light my wood stove with the spam in my email-box...

I reject the idea that this board is about "internet marketing". This board connects people that share a passion. Some may earn a nickel and a dime in the margin of that passion, but the day this board becomes a mere platform for promo talk, I will be gone. In fact, I find SRP an agreeable safe haven, where I can indulge in my passion without someone trying to take commercial advantage of that.

I am pretty sure members with razor related commercial activities, like Howard, Tony Miller, ArdennesCoticule, Leon, Lynn and Don, and many others see the forum more as a great channel for customer service than as a sales channel.
There's a member that tried to sell a miraculous red "far superior" honing paste with fairly aggressive promotion speak. I believe the mods kept a close eye on that.
I am no mod, have nothing to say here, but for me, this guy was flirting with my personal threshold of what I would consider acceptable behavior on this shaving community.
Having a commercial link to a legal bussiness in your sig line, in normal color and font size, is not something I object against.

Best regards,
Bart.

Spam has come to be a general term that's widely applied. There is also a legal definition of spam. Including a link in your sig on a forum board would probably fall under the former. Note that it wouldn't have to be strictly commercial. Might be religious or political in this context. If it was a link to your personal website where you have your autobiography and pictures of the family it probably wouldn't draw that term. So for the loose definition it's an unwanted imposition on your attention.

On forums such as this with paid sponsors/vendors it's going to be a subjective call by the owners and/or mods acting in their behalf. They may have it in the guidelines or TOC and they may not. It's a private board so they can run it like they want. There was a thread/announcement about that not to long ago where it was reiterated that, in general, commercial links in sigs were not going to be allowed unless you were a supporting vendor. It seems to be applied subjectively. There's always grey areas so it will always be generally defined. Bodybuilding for example. On the surface it wouldn't seem to conflict with vendors on a shaving forum. But lets say you had a couple of body oils or skin care products, then maybe, right?

So it might be called spam as a general term for an unsolicited promotion of anything. It really doesn't matter if it's labeled "spam". If you're being prosecuted in court then it would matter.

I do not consider your sig line spam. I can choose to click the link or not. Un wanted advertising such as emails and popups are crap.

Thank y'all for the insight.
I was afraid of that...despite a legal definition, most people are calling any form of marketing they don't like "spam." It would appear we need yet a third word for unwanted marketing ("junk" is already taken by Chinese ships, and "trash" had it's own meaning...hmmm...)

Originally Posted by Ben325e

If you were warned and persisted with the offense resulting in a ban, then there ya go.

I agree, any board owner has the right to make his/her own rules. After all, they're hosting the site and doing the upkeep! (I own a few myself.)

However, my response to the warnings were to:

1. Immediately comply
2. Purchase a paid membership in the highest category so I could "legally" post my url in my sig line (I ponied up $50 which has not yet been returned after banning me 3-4 days AFTER I paid them!)
3. Politely inquire why.

Yet I was still tossed on my ear. And rather rudely.
*shrug*. Knifemakers, go figure.


Quick Orange said:

If it's against the rules, it's against the rules. I'll bet they took it as spam because of the way your website is built. It's extremely spammish and is a mirror image of thousands of certified spam websites. I trust that yours is not, but from a webdesign point of view, that's what it appears to be. This isn't an attack on you or your product, so please don't take it as such. I've studied the psychology of webdesign, so that's where this comes from.

As for spam v marketing, it's highly dependent on the location. Generally though, it needs to be targeted, relevant, and bona fide (in good faith). If it doesn't meet all three, I call spam.

Tam say:
Yes, again, no argument about rules.

OK, I had this discussion last week with another web guy. You're calling my website spamminsh and saying you have studied the psychology of website design.

All well and good. But did you know that good, honest sales letters came first...and then the spammers copied them? So what you're calling "extremely spammish" is actually a profit-producing website with a sales letter that is (and these are my mentor's words, not mine) that is great. And we know it's great because it is passing the reality test of CONVERTING (i.e., making sales.)

I run into this with analytical personalities (like my husband, God love him) all the time. They tell me how many degrees they have, what they've studied. And I say, "That's great. So how many deals have you done?"

And they go, "Deals?"

"Yes, deal. Since you've studied internet marketing, you must have applied that to the real world and be selling a lot of whatever, right?"

So here's my question for you, Orange--how are your products doing?

Mine are selling well. So come to think of it, I don't really care what people call my site, as long as it's profitable and legal!

Mine are going decent. Like I said, it's not an attack on you or your site. My point was that it is not a stretch to see why anyone would call it spam, which seemed to be the intent of this thread. Obviously spam works, otherwise it would go away. To that end, I'm not sure then why you would (or should) care about spam/marketing terminology. If it brings you income, to be frank, why care? The money is just as green and spends the same either way, spam or not.

Originally Posted by YesSheDoes!

"Yes, deal. Since you've studied internet marketing, you must have applied that to the real world and be selling a lot of whatever, right?"

So here's my question for you, Orange--how are your products doing?

Mine are selling well. So come to think of it, I don't really care what people call my site, as long as it's profitable and legal!

I'm not Orange, he'll has to answer for himself. (edit: I see he already did)
But, in Belgium, we have "TEL SELL", a television show that runs after normal broadcasting hours. It's a show that originates from the US, subtitled in Dutch. The only purpose is to sell inferior products that no one needs in the first place. The intonation of that show is one of droning enthusiasm, full of translucent superlatives. Very much like your website. Marketing specialists have stated that it is made that way, because it works. It sells their products.
I won't deny that I find that unsettling. It makes abuse of the inability that some people have with discerning between fabricated promo talk and reality. That it actually works, only makes it worse. The mere fact that "it makes money' doesn't make something ethically sound.
"Thou shall not lie" said the bible. "Thou shall not exaggerate" and "Thou shall not manipulate the masses", should have been included in that great book, all in my agnostic opinion.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

"Thou shall not lie" said the bible. "Thou shall not exaggerate" and "Thou shall not manipulate the masses", should have been included in that great book, all in my agnostic opinion.

Bart.

I believe they are one and the same, but some people will always look for the "loophole" that will legitimize their conduct. BTW, wasnt "the love of money" "the root of all evil"?