Buffalo NY beheading

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Originally Posted by gugi

Every few years there'll be a 'christian flavored sect' that would commit a mass murder or mass suicide so the extremist factor is larger than 0 for christianity as well.

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That's a fair observation Gugi; however, when a Christian commits an heinous act like Koresh, an act against our laws like Jeffs, or fraud like Lyons we condemn it. I will concede that that the US Muslim community have condemed this "honor killing" but it is the first time they have done so and there has been a slew of honor killings in the past.

I get the feeling: that because this was a "centralized" official at the top of a vast public relations network, whose primary goal is to bring understanding and compassion to the Muslim race, this sort of showed "their true colors!"

I think my biggest, underlying, fear here is the possibility of America becomming like Europe! You've got France: where Muslims average 20 children per family, they rioted a few years back and now no one can say anything negative about Muslims. You've got the Neitherlands: where a state senator (I think) is under constand protection for his film showing their "true" nature and Britain's banned him from entering their contry. And... you've got the US: where Palestineans last month were screaming at Jewish protesters to go back in the oven in Florida!

Dude; absolutely no disrespect meant, but this "culture" poses a serious threat to our freedoms and way of life! In Iraq; Christians are still persecuted for their faith although it is getting better. "We" tolerate everyone of every faith, race, gender, and prefrence, yet that "culture" wants to conquer the world.

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Originally Posted by jmueller8

I think my biggest, underlying, fear here is the possibility of America becomming like Europe! You've got France: where Muslims average 20 children per family, they rioted a few years back and now no one can say anything negative about Muslims.

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Q: What is the most popular first name given to newborn boys in Brussels? A: Mohamed

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Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

jockeys, I think you may have edited your post, but when the question (paraphrasing), "How do you deal with someone who is obstinately opposed to your way of thinking?" was posed, you replied, "You kill them." (Or something along those lines.)

Did you mean that wanting to harm or kill someone who has a totally unwavering belief is the only thing bull-headed people like that understand? Or did you mean that you support killing people from that culture?

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i didn't edit my post, but that WAS in a different thread than this one. please discuss that in that thread and not this one, it was forked for a reason. the thread you are talking about is here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...-cultures.html

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Originally Posted by sparq

Q: What is the most popular first name given to newborn boys in Brussels? A: Mohamed

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Damn! That's an unsettling fact!

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Originally Posted by jmueller8

I get the feeling: that because this was a "centralized" official at the top of a vast public relations network, whose primary goal is to bring understanding and compassion to the Muslim race, this sort of showed "their true colors!"

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First there is no such thing as a "Muslim race". There are merely Muslims. Muslims are part of thousands of different cultures.

I am not sure about how you deduce your logic when you say "showed their true colors". I assume you mean to say the actions of one high profile public figure condemns the entire faith.

If so then what do you say about Ted Haggard and Christians?

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Originally Posted by Amyn

If so then what do you say about Ted Haggard and Christians?

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Honestly? I think ANY kind of theistic belief system flies in the face of logic and leads to all kinds of irrational behavior. But that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Amyn

First there is no such thing as a "Muslim race". There are merely Muslims. Muslims are part of thousands of different cultures.

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I was tired; however yours is a more accurate description, no qualms there. I was stereotyping though.

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Originally Posted by Amyn

I am not sure about how you deduce your logic when you say "showed their true colors". I assume you mean to say the actions of one high profile public figure condemns the entire faith.
If so then what do you say about Ted Haggard and Christians?

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It's a fair assessment. He's one man who followed his own petty desires. You'll notice how he's been ostracized by his congregation. In our beheading topic; the media's still skittish about saying honor killing and the media company he led is still pretty quiet. And.. yes; by true colors I meant that I believe the "faith" shares the same philosophies. If a self proclaimed moderate Muslim commits an honor killing.... what makes that any different than a self proclaimed radical Muslim committing the same atrocity?

You do know this is a friendly debate right?

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Originally Posted by jmueller8

I was tired; however yours is a more accurate description, no qualms there. I was stereotyping though.



It's a fair assessment. He's one man who followed his own petty desires. You'll notice how he's been ostracized by his congregation. In our beheading topic; the media's still skittish about saying honor killing and the media company he led is still pretty quiet. And.. yes; by true colors I meant that I believe the "faith" shares the same philosophies. If a self proclaimed moderate Muslim commits an honor killing.... what makes that any different than a self proclaimed radical Muslim committing the same atrocity?

You do know this is a friendly debate right?

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This is certainly a friendly and spirited debate.
I am simply just trying to deduce your logic.

Frankly I consider this an act of domestic violence. Domestic violence does not equal an honor killing just because it is committed by a person who happens to be Muslim. Honor killing is not endorsed by Islam

Ted Haggard was ostracized by his congregation
This man was ostracized by the Muslim community

I believe that it is not reasonable to assume that the despicable actions committed one individual (be it a moderate muslim / christian / jew or a fundamentalist christian / muslim / jew) to represent the views of the entire faith... and that is all I am saying.

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Originally Posted by Amyn

I believe that it is not reasonable to assume that the despicable actions committed one individual (be it a moderate muslim / christian / jew or a fundamentalist christian / muslim / jew) to represent the views of the entire faith... and that is all I am saying.

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Fair enough! Generally I would agree with you 100%; however, in this case I, personally, think it does represent the entire faith. Remember; my past best friend of many years: more or less said he was capable of such things. This was a man who has dedicated his life to medicine, to healing. Before; I would have trusted him with my life and the lives of all my family. He's a very good man but to be able to kill for sake of religion is just inconceivable to me.

Rationally: I'm basing him as the best of the best and the brightest of the brightest of all the individuals I've ever know who followed the Muslim faith. The very bottom would be the suicide bombers. So; my scale from best to worst: encompasses fanaticism based on religious doctrines. I accept that it is unfair for me to judge them all by the that one attribute.

You know; I'd love to see some sort of debate without death threats and intimidation. If this fanaticism is a sect from the "true" Muslim faith, just as Warren Jeff's FLDS was a sect from the LDS (only example I could think of at the moment) then call it what is..... a sect. Don't encompass it with the Muslim faith. I'm Christian as is Haggard; but, he doesn't represent me, my family, or my values, nor do I even consider him a Christian for that matter. So why then; can't the world's Muslims do the same?

Ideally we're all looking for that "westernized" Muslim family who embraces diversity and multiculturalism and "adds" to the society. All I see are Muslims world wide trying to create their own societies and clashing with governments to force laws and favoritism toward "their" causes while the rest of us are left out. Some schools in Britain have canceled Christmas plays because it clashes with the Muslim holidays. Here in the states we've got public schools teaching children Muslim prayers as part of Muslim awareness and yet Christian values are completely ignored. (That is more of a state and governmental problem though as opposed to an individual one.)

I don't know man; it's a hell of a conundrum! (Sorry for rambling.... too many ideas!)

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Originally Posted by jmueller8

Fair enough! Generally I would agree with you 100%; however, in this case I, personally, think it does represent the entire faith. Remember; my past best friend of many years: more or less said he was capable of such things. This was a man who has dedicated his life to medicine, to healing. Before; I would have trusted him with my life and the lives of all my family. He's a very good man but to be able to kill for sake of religion is just inconceivable to me.

Rationally: I'm basing him as the best of the best and the brightest of the brightest of all the individuals I've ever know who followed the Muslim faith. The very bottom would be the suicide bombers. So; my scale from best to worst: encompasses fanaticism based on religious doctrines. I accept that it is unfair for me to judge them all by the that one attribute.

You know; I'd love to see some sort of debate without death threats and intimidation. If this fanaticism is a sect from the "true" Muslim faith, just as Warren Jeff's FLDS was a sect from the LDS (only example I could think of at the moment) then call it what is..... a sect. Don't encompass it with the Muslim faith. I'm Christian as is Haggard; but, he doesn't represent me, my family, or my values, nor do I even consider him a Christian for that matter. So why then; can't the world's Muslims do the same?

I don't know man; it's a hell of a conundrum! (Sorry for rambling.... too many ideas!)

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Being the best, the brightest, the strongest, the most powerful, the most wealthy, the best educated does not give one any moral or ethical authority.

There are plenty of well educated, powerful, wealthy and bright Christians who have done hideous things. But I refuse to judge an entire religion based on the actions of a few.

Warren Jeffs and the KKK use the bible to promote their views but they do not represent all Christians.

Now imagine if you gave the keys to US Treasury to KKK and they had unlimited resources, imagine what would happen.

This is exactly what has happened to Islam.

The "Wahabi Sect" of Islam which is a very small sect within Islam but has very radical views but has unlimited resources. Their numbers are small but the wield a lot of influence.

Yes by the Wahabi sect I am talking about the country of Saudi Arabia which has gotten rich from oil, and have unlimited resources. They are a very small group of people who have their hands on the treasure. And we continue to feed this monster and ignore their radical views because we need their oil.

It is unfortunate that the media only protrays these radical views and it is projected as the views of the entire faith.

There are thousand of different sects in Islam. Islam in not a monolithic religion there are different cultures and traditions. Unfortunately many in the west simply do not know about the diversity.