Socialism Works!

I think what the basic problem between the two main opinions that have been shown in this thread is a cultural clash. We basically have two different mentalities about these subjects. And I don't think we will ever come anywhere with this discussion because of these mental or cultural differences.

Anyway I would like to quote the former social democratic prime minister in Sweden who was murdered in 1986 Olof Palme when he is asked by the leader of the opposing center-right leader Thorbjörn Fälldin why he is a socialist.

"I am a democratic socialist, with pride and with joy. I became that when I was in India and saw the terrible poverty, even though some were terribly rich. When I travelled and saw an even more degrading poverty, in a way, in the United States. When I as a very young man and came eye to eye with the lack of freedom and the oppression of communism and its persecution of humans in the communist states. When I came to the Nazi's concentration camps and saw the death rolls of social democrats and labour unionists.
I became that [democratic socialist] when it became clear to me that it was social democracy that was ground breaking for the democracy in Sweden. When it became clear to me that it was social democracy that lifted [Sweden] out of poverty and unemployment with the policy to meet the crisis of the 1930s. [---]
My conviction is confirmed when I look out to the world when I see the wars and the arms race and the mass unemployement and the gaps between people. My conviction is confirmed when in our own country I see the injustices and unemployment increase, speculation and cheating. When I see the rightist policies in country after country drives people into unemployment, smashes the security and still do not solove the economic problems. And when I see the future the [non-socialist parties] have to offer; wage earners shall become poorer and the rich richer. Where the social security becomes weaker and weaker and the luxury boats more. Where the solidarity becomes weaker and egoism stronger. Where the strong can take and the weak have to settle for less.
Sure I am a democratic socialist with pride, over what this democratic socialism has achieved in this country. I am that with joy because I know the important tasks we have before us [---]
It's about solidarity and concern between human beings[...]"

Here is the speech..if you understand Swedish YouTube - Olof Palme därför är jag demokratisk socialist

A truly great man!
Just wish the SPD in germany would not have been so ruined by people like Schröder or the present great coalition.
I'd so love to resurrect the spirit of Willi Brandt.

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Originally Posted by JimR

Far too many Libertarians are much too close to anarchists for my comfort.

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we ARE anarchists, but with a realist view of life. and your comfort is irrelevant.

pure anarchy is a lot of fun, perhaps, but not stable. a little bit of government IS, sadly, necessary. but it's a necessary evil. and hopelessly incompetent.

the reason america has traditionally hated collectivist (and here i mean the political ideology, and not the other definition) political systems is that they are bastions of the weak, yes, but also prisons of the strong.

our great country was founded by strong, confident men. they thought they knew how to run their own lives better than some king far away in britain. so they formed an extremely limited government that allowed them to rule themselves as they thought best.

to me, people who are in favor of socialism must be awfully weak and insecure. how could you think the government can take care of you better than you can take care of yourself unless you well and truly suck at taking care of yourself? i've never understood it. i prefer to have to most freedom possible... to make my own choices, bad or good, and to bear the consequences for them alone. romantic? maybe. arrogant? certainly! but it sure beats the alternative of having society forced to cater to the lowest common denominator.

so flame away. i'm an arrogant american, and i think i know what's best for me better than the UN does, or my own government, or even the mob-ocracy. i just want to freedom to take care of myself.

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Originally Posted by JimR

What fate are we talking about? Because the difference between capitalism and socialism is not "in capitalism, I make my own decisions about EVERYTHING", because that is patently not true. Do you make decisions about what cancer treatment you get? Nope, you health insurance provider does. Do you make decisions about the price of a new car? No, a corporation has done enormous amounts of research to find out JUST how expensive they can make the cars, without losing too many customers.

Basically, it comes down to who is going to make decisions about your fate--a democratically elected government, or faceless corporate goons.

I choose the former.

Oh my. "The wrong elites." Are there any "RIGHT" Elites?

Listen, I have exactly the same concern, but I trust the government MORE than the other forces that would love to run our lives...In fact, I have no belief that ANY member of the US government wants to run anyone's life--except the conservatives.

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

Yep. A laugh riot.

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I can see why socialism would work for you. Miserable life, is not it?

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Originally Posted by JimR

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

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democrats want to rule the boardroom. republicans want to rule the bedroom.


people who truly understand personal liberty don't want to government handing out iron edicts about social OR fiscal issues.

many people view politics on a simple 1-dimensional left-right scale, i think 2 dimensions is more accurate. see the following article for more info:
World's Smallest Political Quiz

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Originally Posted by 0livia

A truly great man!
Just wish the SPD in germany would not have been so ruined by people like Schröder or the present great coalition.
I'd so love to resurrect the spirit of Willi Brandt.

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He actually mentions Willy Brandt in the speech as one of his friends who risked his life in the struggle for the human value.

Yes the two were close. Brandt has spent some years in Sweden during or after WWII.
I'm pretty curious which one of the systems will prevail in the present crisis.
Guess it all depends on the heads.

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Originally Posted by xman

'Suck' it up. We are a pack animal.

X

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If your happy being a pack animal, so be it. I just assume stand upright.

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Originally Posted by flyboy

Don't take me wrong here, I have lived in the US for over a year now and love it, but I have always been puzzled by the extreme socialist-fear over here.

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Nazi Germany, East Germany, Soviet Union and her satellites, Red China, Pol Pots Cambodia, Canada, etc....

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Nazi Germany, East Germany, Soviet Union and her satellites, Red China, Pol Pots Cambodia, Canada, etc....

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Canada?!:eek: What's so wrong with Canada?
Anyway, the examples you bring up are all communist examples (exept for Nazi germany). And that is a very rudimentary way of looking at the issue. Socialism is not equal to communism. Communism is a (extreme) branch of the wide term 'socialism' but for example social democracy and communism are two different things and they both compete and dislike one another.
This reasoning would be like equalling the american system with Pinochet's chile. It is untrue and unfair. Also the US has at times implemented socialist ideas in the forms of FDR's policies during the depression and also social liberalism. I think the Idea of socialism in america is greatly misunderstood, over-simplified and higly erratic.