Thread: Socialism Works!

Originally Posted by JMS

JimR, I believe where our true difference lies is that you see Government as a force for good and I see Government as a necessary evil.

Indeed. Or rather, I see government as a POTENTIAL force for good, but all too often a tool of evil.
I'm actually relieved, Mark, that you at least think it's necessary. Far too many Libertarians (I'm assuming that is what you are? Forgive me if I'm wrong) are much too close to anarchists for my comfort.

I certainly understand the appeal of less government, the freedom to do as I see fit with my money and my life, but there are far too many NON-governmental forces that would take those very things away without the government's prevention...

Funny. Am I too naive, or too cynical?

Originally Posted by JimR

Indeed. Or rather, I see government as a POTENTIAL force for good, but all too often a tool of evil.
I'm actually relieved, Mark, that you at least think it's necessary. Far too many Libertarians (I'm assuming that is what you are? Forgive me if I'm wrong) are much too close to anarchists for my comfort.

I certainly understand the appeal of less government, the freedom to do as I see fit with my money and my life, but there are far too many NON-governmental forces that would take those very things away without the government's prevention...

Funny. Am I too naive, or too cynical?

Once the principles of "someone can make better decisions about my fate than I do - in the name of overall good and a better society" are established as a society's mantra (which *is* the building block of socialism), you are always on a verge of establishing some form of dictatorship. Human imperfection make noble intentions quickly deteriorate into "I can make better decisions about them than they are - for their own good", and there are no mechanisms in such environment that can prevent or stop massive abusing of power and moral corruption.

For that reason, I see governments as a necessary evil. They need to be kept at bay and closely watched and purged and stripped of false entitlements. If you do not see the danger of empowerment of "the wrong elites" (the weakest link of democracies, IMO) and their entitlement to run your lives, you are certainly very naive in my eyes.

Originally Posted by sparq

Once the principles of "someone can make better decisions about my fate than I do - in the name of overall good and a better society" are established as a society's mantra (which *is* the building block of socialism), you are always on a verge of establishing some form of dictatorship. Human imperfection make noble intentions quickly deteriorate into "I can make better decisions about them than they are - for their own good", and there are no mechanisms in such environment that can prevent or stop massive abusing of power and moral corruption.

What fate are we talking about? Because the difference between capitalism and socialism is not "in capitalism, I make my own decisions about EVERYTHING", because that is patently not true. Do you make decisions about what cancer treatment you get? Nope, you health insurance provider does. Do you make decisions about the price of a new car? No, a corporation has done enormous amounts of research to find out JUST how expensive they can make the cars, without losing too many customers.

Basically, it comes down to who is going to make decisions about your fate--a democratically elected government, or faceless corporate goons.

I choose the former.

Originally Posted by sparq

For that reason, I see governments as a necessary evil. They need to be kept at bay and closely watched and purged and stripped of false entitlements. If you do not see the danger of empowerment of "the wrong elites" (the weakest link of democracies, IMO) and their entitlement to run your lives, you are certainly very naive in my eyes.

Oh my. "The wrong elites." Are there any "RIGHT" Elites?

Listen, I have exactly the same concern, but I trust the government MORE than the other forces that would love to run our lives...In fact, I have no belief that ANY member of the US government wants to run anyone's life--except the conservatives.

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

Yep. A laugh riot.

Originally Posted by JimR

What fate are we talking about? Because the difference between capitalism and socialism is not "in capitalism, I make my own decisions about EVERYTHING", because that is patently not true. Do you make decisions about what cancer treatment you get? Nope, you health insurance provider does. Do you make decisions about the price of a new car? No, a corporation has done enormous amounts of research to find out JUST how expensive they can make the cars, without losing too many customers.

Basically, it comes down to who is going to make decisions about your fate--a democratically elected government, or faceless corporate goons.

I choose the former.

Oh my. "The wrong elites." Are there any "RIGHT" Elites?

Listen, I have exactly the same concern, but I trust the government MORE than the other forces that would love to run our lives...In fact, I have no belief that ANY member of the US government wants to run anyone's life--except the conservatives.

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

Yep. A laugh riot.

I can see why socialism would work for you. Miserable life, is not it?

Originally Posted by JimR

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

democrats want to rule the boardroom. republicans want to rule the bedroom.


people who truly understand personal liberty don't want to government handing out iron edicts about social OR fiscal issues.

many people view politics on a simple 1-dimensional left-right scale, i think 2 dimensions is more accurate. see the following article for more info:
World's Smallest Political Quiz

Originally Posted by JimR

... But that's what I believe. If that's socialism, well, call me a socialist. (It's not, though...)

Always ready to welcome a comrade.

Originally Posted by JimR

I certainly understand the appeal of less government, the freedom to do as I see fit with my money and my life, but there are far too many NON-governmental forces that would take those very things away without the government's prevention...

Funny. Am I too naive, or too cynical?

One great mistake the Soviets made was assuming that their Communism could be implemented at all. It is common to misinterpret Marx to mean that radical changes are what drive social progress. Politics and Social convention, like all things in nature, evolve. I might use the interesting developments this line of discussion has shown throughout the last several months as an example of how a set of memes, those we've been bandying through these conversations, have evolved. Marx believed that a period of global Socialism would be necessary before true Communism (which I envision much like the Libertarian ideal) could be practised. Under such a system people would have plenty and need much less so there should be less disruptive behaviour.

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First of all I didn't read all of the page, but i did skim through the par about Sweden.

But first of all what kind of socialism are we talking about? For example Social democrats and communists hate each other more than anything. I think we must make a distinction as the term Socialism is too broad, like Christianity..they all have some things in common but may be very different indeed.

Also, why is there a pic of Jacques Chirac? he is not a socialist.. Also one might question weather national socialism and fascism are socialism, but generally sure we could accept that as they are actually closer than socialists want to admit for example they share the idea that capitalism is not good (but we must remember that capitalism is also an integral part of some forms of socialism).

Anyway about some of the Sweden parts - Some of the stuff written here are just ridiculous with the only aim of saying socialism is bad, I wont go in to details as I'm too lazy for that. But some of the stuff is just playing with numbers and (perhaps) theoretical assumptions. Like the statement "Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work)" this is just bullcrap, I have never heard of such a thing and even it is so theoretically (although i doubt it) in real life thats not how it works.
Also that sweden has high taxes, now that is true the municipal tax is around 32-33% and the VAT is 25% except for food 12% and books 6% (I dont know if there are other exceptions. And of course there are also other taxes. But this IMO does not tell us much if we do not ask the question of what the citizens get it return for their tax.
Here is a short list (except for the usual things like lawenfocement, government administration, defence etc.) - Free schools (and school lunch), free univeristies and higher education, child support and students allowences, free health and dental care for childern and for adults at a very reduced price, various wellfare support, pension etc etc.

These are things that many people would have troubble affording if it werent for these taxes, they may be high but what you get in return is worth it.

Sure the serilizations etc did occur but it would be wrong to say "The history of Swedish domestic relations is chock full of civil rights abuses[...]". I also doubt that the sterilizations were conducted just because of the socialdemocrats were in government, it would probably have been going on even with another government in rule. Also non-socialist countries also engaged in civilrights abuses. Sweden probably have a more clean past when it comes to these thing than most other modern countries both socialist and not.

"While the government spent 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product in the '90s, for 4 years the national debt doubled and for 3 years the nation experienced negative financial growth." Ok, but during these years the government was led by a center-right coalission, not socialdemocrats. But the financial crisis of the 90's was not started by this new government it was quite global. however the effects of the crisis was in many cases milder in Sweden because of the measures that were taken (along with the then oppositional socialdemocrats).

Alright I'm tiered now, but the webpage is highly biased and gives an unfair portrayl of "socialism" and of sweden.

Originally Posted by Rawaz

Anyway about some of the Sweden parts - Some of the stuff written here are just ridiculous with the only aim of saying socialism is bad, I wont go in to details as I'm too lazy for that. But some of the stuff is just playing with numbers and (perhaps) theoretical assumptions. Like the statement "Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work)" this is just bullcrap, I have never heard of such a thing and even it is so theoretically (although i doubt it) in real life thats not how it works.
Also that sweden has high taxes, now that is true the municipal tax is around 32-33% and the VAT is 25% except for food 12% and books 6% (I dont know if there are other exceptions. And of course there are also other taxes. But this IMO does not tell us much if we do not ask the question of what the citizens get it return for their tax.
Here is a short list (except for the usual things like lawenfocement, government administration, defence etc.) - Free schools (and school lunch), free univeristies and higher education, child support and students allowences, free health and dental care for childern and for adults at a very reduced price, various wellfare support, pension etc etc.

Free? But you just posted that all of those services were paid via taxes. Maybe you meant free for those who don't pay taxes? Otherwise none of what you mentioned is free.

Here's an article regarding education in Sweden: The Swedish Model - Socialism, Education, and Failure

The article is dated 1992, but I think the information is relevant. I don't know, but maybe the facts in this article are ridiculous too.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

I would like to know, from any of you who are inclined towards Liberal or even Socialist thought, do you see, or comprehend, in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence above, any wording that supports your view?

Feel free to use any part of the Declaration, even the Constitution, to support your views.

Let's discuss.

Originally Posted by honedright

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

I would like to know, from any of you who are inclined towards Liberal or even Socialist thought, do you see, or comprehend, in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence above, any wording that supports your view?

All of it except the "endowed by their Creator" part.