Thread: Socialism Works!

Originally Posted by sparq

Once the principles of "someone can make better decisions about my fate than I do - in the name of overall good and a better society" are established as a society's mantra (which *is* the building block of socialism), you are always on a verge of establishing some form of dictatorship. Human imperfection make noble intentions quickly deteriorate into "I can make better decisions about them than they are - for their own good", and there are no mechanisms in such environment that can prevent or stop massive abusing of power and moral corruption.

What fate are we talking about? Because the difference between capitalism and socialism is not "in capitalism, I make my own decisions about EVERYTHING", because that is patently not true. Do you make decisions about what cancer treatment you get? Nope, you health insurance provider does. Do you make decisions about the price of a new car? No, a corporation has done enormous amounts of research to find out JUST how expensive they can make the cars, without losing too many customers.

Basically, it comes down to who is going to make decisions about your fate--a democratically elected government, or faceless corporate goons.

I choose the former.

Originally Posted by sparq

For that reason, I see governments as a necessary evil. They need to be kept at bay and closely watched and purged and stripped of false entitlements. If you do not see the danger of empowerment of "the wrong elites" (the weakest link of democracies, IMO) and their entitlement to run your lives, you are certainly very naive in my eyes.

Oh my. "The wrong elites." Are there any "RIGHT" Elites?

Listen, I have exactly the same concern, but I trust the government MORE than the other forces that would love to run our lives...In fact, I have no belief that ANY member of the US government wants to run anyone's life--except the conservatives.

You know, it's funny. If the great conservative ideal is "laissez faire", then why is gay marriage and abortion denied by it? Sounds a WHOLE lot like trying to run people's lives...
"You can do anything you want with your money, but NOT your body..."

Yep. A laugh riot.

Originally Posted by Rawaz

Anyway about some of the Sweden parts - Some of the stuff written here are just ridiculous with the only aim of saying socialism is bad, I wont go in to details as I'm too lazy for that. But some of the stuff is just playing with numbers and (perhaps) theoretical assumptions. Like the statement "Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work)" this is just bullcrap, I have never heard of such a thing and even it is so theoretically (although i doubt it) in real life thats not how it works.
Also that sweden has high taxes, now that is true the municipal tax is around 32-33% and the VAT is 25% except for food 12% and books 6% (I dont know if there are other exceptions. And of course there are also other taxes. But this IMO does not tell us much if we do not ask the question of what the citizens get it return for their tax.
Here is a short list (except for the usual things like lawenfocement, government administration, defence etc.) - Free schools (and school lunch), free univeristies and higher education, child support and students allowences, free health and dental care for childern and for adults at a very reduced price, various wellfare support, pension etc etc.

Free? But you just posted that all of those services were paid via taxes. Maybe you meant free for those who don't pay taxes? Otherwise none of what you mentioned is free.

Here's an article regarding education in Sweden: The Swedish Model - Socialism, Education, and Failure

The article is dated 1992, but I think the information is relevant. I don't know, but maybe the facts in this article are ridiculous too.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

I would like to know, from any of you who are inclined towards Liberal or even Socialist thought, do you see, or comprehend, in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence above, any wording that supports your view?

Feel free to use any part of the Declaration, even the Constitution, to support your views.

Let's discuss.

Originally Posted by honedright

Free? But you just posted that all of those services were paid via taxes. Maybe you meant free for those who don't pay taxes? Otherwise none of what you mentioned is free.

Here's an article regarding education in Sweden: The Swedish Model - Socialism, Education, and Failure

The article is dated 1992, but I think the information is relevant. I don't know, but maybe the facts in this article are ridiculous too.

Yes but I did state in the paragraph before that one that it is the taxes that pay for these services.

Originally Posted by JMS

JimR, I believe where our true difference lies is that you see Government as a force for good and I see Government as a necessary evil.

Mark, your opinion has good company:

Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.

Thomas Paine

Originally Posted by honedright

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

I would like to know, from any of you who are inclined towards Liberal or even Socialist thought, do you see, or comprehend, in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence above, any wording that supports your view?

All of it except the "endowed by their Creator" part.

Originally Posted by honedright

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

I would like to know, from any of you who are inclined towards Liberal or even Socialist thought, do you see, or comprehend, in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence above, any wording that supports your view?

Feel free to use any part of the Declaration, even the Constitution, to support your views.

Let's discuss.

Was this the paragraph you meant? If it is and if I understood the text correctly i.e the basics of a democracy. That the government should be made up of Men (I assume Men as in mankind, at least that would be the meaning today) and that their powers come from the citizens.
I don't see how this could contradict socialism (if we then mean social democracy for example). I don't see your point really why you would believe otherwise? According to the Democracy index Sweden, one of those terrible socialist states is number 1..while the US is number 18.

This part of the american const. (the red highlighting) is also quite similar to what the swedish law says.
But anyway if you would care to alaborate why it would not be consistent with socialism....

Originally Posted by Rawaz

Was this the paragraph you meant? If it is and if I understood the text correctly i.e the basics of a democracy. That the government should be made up of Men (I assume Men as in mankind, at least that would be the meaning today) and that their powers come from the citizens.
I don't see how this could contradict socialism (if we then mean social democracy for example). I don't see your point really why you would believe otherwise? According to the Democracy index Sweden, one of those terrible socialist states is number 1..while the US is number 18.

This part of the american const. (the red highlighting) is also quite similar to what the swedish law says.
But anyway if you would care to alaborate why it would not be consistent with socialism....

My understanding is that the United States is a democratic republic, not a pure democracy. Our democratic process is defined by our Constitution.

The Declaration states that "all men are created equal." Socialism, as I understand it, declares that all men must live equal.

In order for that to occur, those with greater abilities, talents, potential (all men are created equal, but not all men remain equal) must give up a part of the fruits of their labors (property) to supply others with lesser abilities, talent, potential.

If one is deprived of property (as must occur under socialism) - how is that an example of liberty, a natural right bestowed by the creator and protected (secured) by the government?

Consider this quote from John Adams:

"Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent."

Or this from James Madison:

"Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government which impartially secures to every man whatever is his own."

And, to be fair, this from Ben Franklin:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."

But Franklin also said this:

"Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. St. Monday and St. Tuesday, will soon cease to be holidays. Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them."

Originally Posted by xman

All of it except the "endowed by their Creator" part.

Xman, thats the most beautiful part of it. Man is endowed by his creator, this takes the power of endowment out of the hands of other men. The government was not meant to be trusted with the power of endowment of individual liberty, government has no right to allocate liberty or deny liberty, the only proper function of government is the protection of that liberty. Amen!

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Xman, thats the most beautiful part of it. Man is endowed by his creator, this takes the power of endowment out of the hands of other men. The government was not meant to be trusted with the power of endowment of individual liberty, government has no right to allocate liberty or deny liberty, the only proper function of government is the protection of that liberty. Amen!

You are mistaken. Your liberty is granted to you by men whether you would like to think of it that way or not. Here in Canada though, the courts have the final say over governments in their struggle to circumvent rights since we have a Declaration of Rights and Freedoms attached to our constitution which they consult.

X