I have changed my view.

I have caught little clips of news here and there talking about Cheney and his constant criticism of the new administration. My thoughts, as with all previous administrations, have been "Shut up already! Let the new administration do what it will do. Have a little dignity and keep quiet, you will sound like a whiner."
Today that all changed! I listened to Cheneys speech and loved it! I wondered why our previous president and vice president didn't defend themselves like this when they were in office, but I was also glad to hear it now!
I will likely comment more later, but before I do I thought you all might like to see the speech for yourself and make up your own minds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VANII59j1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikS5Olt8Kmw

YouTube - (Part 3/4) Dick Cheney's Bush-Era National Security Speech at AEI (American Enterprise Institute)

YouTube - (Part 4/4) Dick Cheney's Bush-Era National Security Speech at AEI (American Enterprise Institute)

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Originally Posted by JMS

I wondered why our previous president and vice president didn't defend themselves like this when they were in office

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I asked myself the same question constantly all through their time in office. I think a great many things could have turned out very differently if they had, including the last election.

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Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I asked myself the same question constantly all through their time in office. I think a great many things could have turned out very differently if they had, including the last election.

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At the risk of opening up a whole can of worms... McCain shot himself in the neck when he picked Palin. Nothing would have changed that. Nor would the economy have kept chugging along after he said the US economy was healthy. And the fact that most of the negative campaigning came from the McCain camp was not a big win either.

Regardless of political opinion, I think it is safe to say that for Obama's campaign, evertyhing clicked together, while McCain's campaign fell apart at every possible joint.
Some of it was 'luck' (the economy, the press going to town on Palin, ...), some of it was skill (his speeches), but I don't think Bush and Cheney could have changed the outcome by defending themselves.

Sorry to disappoint, Bruno, but I don't see much a can of worms there.;)

I actually agree with you right down the line.

What I would point out, is that if Bush/Cheney had recognized that their position was stronger than they seemed to think it was, and had vigorously defended it, McCain would have either never won in the primaries with his anti-Bush campaign, or he would have run a completely different campaign.

As for shooting himself in the foot with Palin, I'm not sure that she would have been enough to cost him the election, if it wasn't for the fact he'd already run a pretty lame campaign, and done just as poor a job of defending his running mate as Bush and Cheney did defending themselves.

Just imagine how things might have turned out if Bush/Cheney had vigorously defended themselves. The republican party would have gone into the primaries not only stronger in general, but with a stronger conservative base. Romney would probably have won the primaries, despite being mormon. (No offense to mormons there, it's just that the more, "traditional" denominations are more likely to get a man in the White House)

With the backing of much higher satisfaction ratings for the sitting republican president, Romney would have crushed Obama or Clinton in the election (whichever one got the nomination in this alternate history) because let's face it, they were both soft candidates who had no chance against a strong opponent.

Romney, being a true conservative, would probably have handled this whole bail-out/recession issue completely differently. Things just keep getting better from there.

I also agree about Obama's campaign. I don't agree with most of his politics, but the guy is one heck of a speaker as long as he stays on the cue cards.

Thanks vee. Your analysis is the same as mine. Romney was my favorite republican candidate btw.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Romney was my favorite republican candidate btw.

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Mine too. Just once in my life I'd like to vote FOR a president, rather than against one. Between Obama's vagueness and McCain's plan to tax employer paid health insurance (which is in congress now anyway) I had a really hard times deciding who it was most important to vote against.

AMEN! This "lesser of 2 evils" stuff is annoying me. I tend to be pretty conservative, and McCain was no dream candidate. Actually contrary to apparently most I only voted for McCain *because* of Palin. I probably would have voted for Barr or some other 3rd party otherwise. I don't think the McCain handling of Palin was good, not to mention in general the Republican party is afraid of her since "back home" she had this strange tendency to be a responsible politician without regard to party.

And regarding the original post, I always felt if GW had the communications ability of Clinton or Oba that everyone would have loved him. As it was, he chugged along doing whatever he thought was best but pretty much kept everyone else guessing.

Now we have a congress and president who decide to spend almost $800billion without even reading the bill or knowing where the $$ is going.. Very consistent with the political theory that if you just throw money up in the air problems will solve themselves.

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Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

Mine too. Just once in my life I'd like to vote FOR a president, rather than against one. Between Obama's vagueness and McCain's plan to tax employer paid health insurance (which is in congress now anyway) I had a really hard times deciding who it was most important to vote against.

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I honestly wish there was a lever for:

None of the Above.

to anyone who has watched Obama and Cheneys speeches it should have become clear that we have made a huge mistake

Cheney is off the leash and may express his views now that he is no longer part of an administration.

On the subject of keeping criticism to one's self, President Carter, and many others from previous administrations (Republican and Democrat) have not remained silent. The news organizations have a never ending list of previous administration members they call upon to provide contrasting views.

As to the choices in the most recent presidential election, I fault both parties for not putting forth their best.

Interesting to see republicans suddenly concerned about government spending after the previous 8 years. I support our President and hope that his policies succeed.

That is my number 1 criticism of GW is the uncontrolled spending, however I believe to some extent this is a natural outcome of having one party control congress and executive branch, which we now have again.

I really don't understand why it is so hard to come up with a budget that ends with a positive number. It is almost always easier to cut spending than increase income. There were high hopes for our first MBA president, but he was certainly a disappointment in that standpoint.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Interesting to see republicans suddenly concerned about government spending. I support our President and hope that his policies succeed.

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I didn't see anything new from Cheney - his speech was in essense 'the goal justifies the means', which is what he has been saying forever.

Surprise, surprise. They're both full of it:

Obama vs. Cheney: Just the facts - Yahoo! News

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Originally Posted by Brother Jeeter

I honestly wish there was a lever for:

None of the Above.

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shoulda written in Chuck Norris, like I did. :nono:

Changed your view?

How so?

I had the impression you were a Republican and Reagan supporter, so how would listening to Cheney's new take on the "Evil Empire" view of the world be eye opening?



(BTW, I'm not a big Obama fan either, I wrote in a vote for my wife when I voted as a matter of fact since I thought she could do a better job than either of the choices presented to me))

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Originally Posted by JMS

. My thoughts, as with all previous administrations, have been "Shut up already! Let the new administration do what it will do. Have a little dignity and keep quiet, you will sound like a whiner."
Today that all changed!

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My view that changed is in the above quote. I never like it when previous administrations openly criticize the current administration but after hearing his speech I realize it's not sour milk. hes not throwing a fit because a republican or conservative was not elected. He is defending himself and the last administration against the constant finger pointing of the current administration and his love for our great country and his wish for it not to be harmed is also very apparent to me in this speech.
In my mind he is simply doing his best to protect this country and the previous administration from the mistakes and political maneuverings of the present administration!

I hope this answers your question

Regarding the safety of this Nation, since November 4, 2008, I have been Praying a lot, rubbing a rabbit's foot furiously and I've spent time looking for four leaf clovers. I don't have a lot of faith in the wisdom of most of the clowns in Congress! And others...

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Originally Posted by jockeys

shoulda written in Chuck Norris, like I did. :nono:

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In Oklahoma write ins are thrown out :(

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Originally Posted by JMS

My view that changed is in the above quote. I never like it when previous administrations openly criticize the current administration but after hearing his speech I realize it's not sour milk. hes not throwing a fit because a republican or conservative was not elected. He is defending himself and the last administration against the constant finger pointing of the current administration and his love for our great country and his wish for it not to be harmed is also very apparent to me in this speech.
In my mind he is simply doing his best to protect this country and the previous administration from the mistakes and political maneuverings of the present administration!

I hope this answers your question

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And it could just as easily be said that President Obama is simply trying to do his best and correct the mistakes from the previuos administration, which is what he was elected to do by the American people.

The fact that Mr. Cheney does not agree with Obama's way of going about things is sour grapes in my opinion. Cheney has spoken more in public in the last 6 months than he did in the past 8 years when he was supposed to be representing us the American people.

It's nothing new. All the Clinton supporters also wrung their hands and shouted about the sky falling after GW Bush took office with aradically different approach to things.

From our side of the pond Cheney was the brain behind the Bush government and suffered quite a lot from bad actors on the main stage.
The speech does not surprise me and not impress me either.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

It's nothing new. All the Clinton supporters also wrung their hands and shouted about the sky falling after GW Bush took office with a radically different approach to things.

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Yes they did. There are 2 glaring differences though The Bush administration did not blame the Clinton administration for every little thing nor did the Bush administration dare to entertain the idea of prosecuting any of the Clinton administration for Political differences or decisions made while they were in power.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

In Oklahoma write ins are thrown out :(

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WOW, talk about a violation of your voting rights. You have the right under the constitution to vote for whomever you want to.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

In Oklahoma write ins are thrown out :(

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which is doubly ironic, because that's where Chuck was from until he had the sense to move down here :rofl2:

And just to be clear: I am most certainly NOT a big fan of Obama, nor Democratic party ideals.

All I'm saying is Bush&Cheney Inc ran the show for EIGHT years. Time to button the lip and let the next guy do his thing. He's only been in office 4 months so far.

It would be one thing as a normal private citizen to speak out against the president is one thing. The fact that the person being so outspoken being the guy who just had that job is quite another.

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Originally Posted by bbshriver

That is my number 1 criticism of GW is the....

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the sumbitch took my nickname !!!! (and the expansion of education)

but I digress

yes yes
Republicans in power can only be one of two things

1 evil genius
2 idiot

In this case we got both (so says the Leftys)

oh and didn't someone rebut the whole sour grapes argument by saying
JIMMY CARTER

every time I see him I'm surprised he managed to find a door knob to get out of the house

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

And just to be clear: I am most certainly NOT a big fan of Obama, nor Democratic party ideals.

All I'm saying is Bush&Cheney Inc ran the show for EIGHT years. Time to button the lip and let the next guy do his thing. He's only been in office 4 months so far.

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4 months too long. He's already spent more than the previous administration did in 8 years , and they were chronic over spenders. The more he is deservedly criticized the more people wake up from their infatuation with pretty scripted words and start listening to the real message. Hopefully all of these people keep writing their elected representatives and put enough pressure on them so that they will keep the brakes on and keep potus's agenda from ruining this country completely.


We could do far worse than Chuck Noris for president. We already had one great one who used to star in movies with a monkey maybe it's time for another.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

t
oh and didn't someone rebut the whole sour grapes argument by saying
JIMMY CARTER

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I was trying to avoid such an obvious point but since you said it...

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Originally Posted by JMS

Yes they did. There are 2 glaring differences though The Bush administration did not blame the Clinton administration for every little thing nor did the Bush administration dare to entertain the idea of prosecuting any of the Clinton administration for Political differences or decisions made while they were in power.

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I wouldn't call the things in question 'little' - clearly Cheney and Obama don't consider them little either.
I don't know what political differences you are talking about, but Nixon was prosecuted despite his opinion that "when the president does it it's not illegal".

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

4 months too long. He's already spent more than the previous administration did in 8 years , and they were chronic over spenders. The more he is deservedly criticized the more people wake up from their infatuation with pretty scripted words and start listening to the real message. Hopefully all of these people keep writing their elected representatives and put enough pressure on them so that they will keep the brakes on and keep potus's agenda from ruining this country completely.


We could do far worse than Chuck Noris for president. We already had one great one who used to star in movies with a monkey maybe it's time for another.

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This is pretty much exactly my point.

There is no change in viewpoint for anybody as the thread title implies.

The conservaties will always deride the liberals, and the liberals the conservatives. My party has the Right Ideas, the Other Guys are morons.

Cheney is saying the Other Guys are morons, because the Other Guys are undoing all that they worked so hard to do, right or wrong. The Clintons were morons for undoing all the hard work of Bush #1, and on and on.

I'm not really trying to say who is right or wrong, it just doesn't seem as if anybody has changed any views, rather had views re-enforced. A ultra-conservative ex-VP has issues with a liberal minded new President? Is that really such a surprise?

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Originally Posted by gugi

I wouldn't call the things in question 'little' - clearly Cheney and Obama don't consider them little either.
I don't know what political differences you are talking about, but Nixon was prosecuted despite his opinion that "when the president does it it's not illegal".

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He was ready to be impeached for illegal wiretapping while president. He resigned before the impeachment and Ford pardoned him! Ford did the right thing so as not to stain the presidency any further than Nixon already did. It cost him the election in 76 by the way and I bet he knew it would.
I wonder if Obama has such courage and strength of character or will he continue using the Bush administration as his personal whipping boy and scapegoat?

You're merely showing your double standard, Mark. I'm sure your opinion will change again when the circumstances permit you to trumpet your personal political viewpoint. I don't say this to get you going (this time :D) but merely to state a fact. We are all vulnerable to this and I have caught myself doing it from time to time.

NOBODY and NOTHING is above criticism. In the "Can you really be put in jail for criticising" (misquoted I know) thread, you argue very strongly against this course of action and have even been successful at altering my own views on the matter. And before you do, hauling out the "this is different" defense won't cut it.

And for the record, I think Cheney's speech was deplorable. Really, "we tortured because it kept us safe". Well, that's hardly true. Anti-American sentiment couldn't have been higher under the previous administration and neither could America's human rights record. Hundreds of thousands died on your side of the conflict alone because of these decisions. What it did was make him richer.

It has been opined to me that there are two kinds of people in the world, politically speaking. There's the Tyrant who justifies all actions for the attainment of power, arguing that this is what "makes us strong", "keeps us great", "keeps us safe". Then there's the Samaritan who helps raise the dignity of all people arguing that, "we are all uplifted", "we would want such justice ourselves", and "beware when battling monsters least ye become one".

X

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Originally Posted by xman

You're merely showing your double standard, Mark. I'm sure your opinion will change again when the circumstances permit you to trumpet your personal political viewpoint. I don't say this to get you going (this time :D) but merely to state a fact. We are all vulnerable to this and I have caught myself doing it from time to time.

NOBODY and NOTHING is above criticism. In the "Can you really be put in jail for criticising" (misquoted I know) thread, you argue very strongly against this course of action and have even been successful at altering my own views on the matter. And before you do, hauling out the "this is different" defense won't cut it.

And for the record, I think Cheney's speech was deplorable. Really, "we tortured because it kept us safe". Well, that's hardly true. Anti-American sentiment couldn't have been higher under the previous administration and neither could America's human rights record. Hundreds of thousands died on your side of the conflict alone because of these decisions. What it did was make him richer.

It has been opined to me that there are two kinds of people in the world, politically speaking. There's the Tyrant who justifies all actions for the attainment of power, arguing that this is what "makes us strong", "keeps us great", "keeps us safe". Then there's the Samaritan who helps raise the dignity of all people arguing that, "we are all uplifted", "we would want such justice ourselves", and "beware when battling monsters least ye become one".

X

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See the post immediately above your post that I quoted X

That doesn't wash either. Wasn't Ford Nixon's vice president? Clearly they were together on it.

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Originally Posted by xman

That doesn't wash either. Wasn't Ford Nixon's vice president? Clearly they were together on it.

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I don't believe they were but it is true that that is a possibility.

As far as whats going on with The accusations against the bush administration I believe it is more a political tool to shut up, cut off, and demonize the opposition rather than meting out true justice.

I believe this is where we differ it is not a double standard on my part as you say, we just see it from a diametrically opposed view point.

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Originally Posted by JMS

He resigned before the impeachment and Ford pardoned him! Ford did the right thing so as not to stain the presidency any further than Nixon already did.

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are you taking an opinion contrary to the spirit of justices scalia and thomas? i thought you believed in blind justice.

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Originally Posted by JMS

It cost him the election in 76 by the way and I bet he knew it would.

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so you believe he thought the liberal policies that would follow after his failure to be reelected weren't as great of a threat to the country as the 'stain to the presidential institution' that prosecuting nixon would've been? to me it's the deeds that do the damage, not the prosecution.

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Originally Posted by JMS

I wonder if Obama has such courage and strength of character or will he continue using the Bush administration as his personal whipping boy and scapegoat?

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and i thought this was all about your opinion of cheney...

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Originally Posted by JMS

As far as whats going on with The accusations against the bush administration I believe it is more a political tool to shut up, cut off, and demonize the opposition rather than meting out true justice.

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makes no sense whatsoever to me - can you explain how accusing somebody of something is shutting them up or cutting them off?

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Originally Posted by JMS

I don't believe they were ...

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Once again your 'belief' is inconsistent with reality.

George and Dick had eight years to present their case and promote their policy. Eight years is a very long time.

He had the opportunity to say all of these things while he was in office. People feel like they were the bigger liars, so they voted for the guy who at least had the good sense to lie in a way people would vote for.

Sorry, but Dick's ramblings are not of any interest to me, and he should have the good sense to shut up before he makes himself look like a bigger idiot. John Stewart said it best, "It's like asking Wyle E. Cyote how to catch the road runner".

Honestly, do you really think that the invasion of Iraq was not a giant mistake? Do we really want to take the advice of the architects of that mistake when it comes to fixing it? If you hire a mechanic to fix your car, and he totally wrecks the engine, do you want him to be the one to tell you how to fix it?