Oklahoma Incident

The idea of a one shot knock down with a pistol is a myth. I don't care what the caliber or ammo. The only way your going to immediately put him down is a shot to the spinal cord. Even a head shot often times won't do it. He may die in 20 seconds but he can kill you in that time. If you want to put him down in one shot a 12 gauge with slugs will do the job.

The sad fact is hit a peace officer with a 22 in the finger and he goes down. Hit a bad guy with a 45, five shots to the chest and he fights until he dies. That is a very common scenario. Has to do with adrenalin and mental state.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Has to do with adrenalin and ANGEL DUST.

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fixed that for ya.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't have guns, but if I decided to carry for self defense, I'd choose the ammo to make sure that whatever I hit goes down and stays down. The reason being that if the situation is grave enough for me to actually pull the trigger, I want to do as much damage as possible.

And if the bullets hit something else like the wall, the risk of through-and-through shots is probably less because the bullet shatters.

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I'm not going to address any particular post here concerning bullets because I would be here all night and offend a couple of people.

Unfortunately even in this age of science people repeat lies and lies and lies about terminal peformance.

#1
FMJ, or full metal jacket, does not "bounce around" or "tumble" or any other kind of voodo.
If you say they do, you are ignorant of terminal ballistics.


FMJ operates in two ways, depending if it is pistol or rifle.
I'm not going to deal with rifle here.
Pistol pokes a hole.
In a straight line.
It goes in a straight line because there are no steering forces on the bullet and if you disagree please give a detailed argument as to how the bullet path is changed. You can't, it doesn't unless it hits bone.
PERIOD.
If anyone tells you otherwise just stop listening because they are filling your head with crap and making you dumber in the process.

#2
Frangible ammunition is in it's infancy and should not be relied on.
The vast majority of frangible is designed for "kill houses" or activities in which lead slugs rebounding from steel plates is very dangerous.

All this rapid transfer of energy looks very impressive in a watermelon, or jug of water, but means nothing.
It may make one bullet look better than another because of all the "shock" but you need a rifle if you mean to kill through shock.
Even large handguns (normal people guns here) barely make it into the realm of "Hydrostatic Shock".
A lighter bullet going faster WILL make a bigger splash but this is where the 9mm got people into trouble so many years ago.
Light bullet, going fast, more energy, but not enough penetration to reach the vitals.
They sound cool,oh sure.
Those safety slugs Glaser makes are trash and so are those other gimmick bullets. Extreme Shock comes to mind.
If these people were honest,they would publish gelatin penetration tests.
Period.
Novelty ammunition is is junk.
Period.
If you can't find GOOD published data on gelatin tests indicating 12+ inches of penetration then don't buy that ammo.
If these people were honest they would publish data.
PERIOD.

#3
HOLLOWPOINTS

I'm gonna break this down into a few here.

#1 NOT (with a few notable but not mainstream exceptions) designed to fragment. NOT.
Handguns do not provide sufficient velocity for radial fragmentation to aid in tearing the temporary cavity (produced by cavitation) and therefore every grain of weight a bullet sheds equates to reduced penetration.
Hampers performance in other words.

#2
NOT frangible.
Frangibles are pre-fragmented.
Hollowpoints are not with a few notable exceptions.

#3
Hydraulic pressure of bodily fluids entering the hollow cavity (hollow point) forces the nose to open.
If you have ever looked inside a Hydrashock and seen the little rod, well that is designed to redirect the force OUT and open the cavity.
If there is no fluid, then the bullet probably won't work right.

#4
If the bullet strikes a solid object such as drywall, the cavity often clogs (some 75% of the time in FBI 45acp testing IIRC) and fails to expand.
They then act as a solid, or FMJ and penetration is drastically increased.


BULLET PLACEMENT
If you shoot them in the head they will almost always go down.
Many will get back up, but they will go down.

IF you have a big enough gun they will stay down.

I shot a deer in the neck with my 10mm last season.
It went BANG-FLOP.
You can knock stuff down but the 380 is a **** poor choice.

get a real gun
man up, carry a real gun
it won't be comfortable
it won't help your wardrobe (believe me)
it's a real PITA
you'll probably NEVER use it
but man up and get a real gun anyway

There are like 3-4 more that I would like to address but I'm tired and not thinking very clearly

I only had the Glaser rounds to try to minimize the chances of inadvertently shooting one of my neighbors. It was only after I paid about $2/round that I thought to check and found out we actually had concrete walls. (old building)

I'd never heard of them being extra lethal, in fact I have heard stories of the blue tipped ones being stopped by a thick leather jacket. Still hurts like a b**ch but no penetration.

I have some federal premium rounds that are supposed to act a lot like the old black talons and be uber-sharp when they petal out.

As for FMJ, GW is absolutely right. Part of that ridiculous speech given to military personnel these days about it being better to wound an enemy combatant than to kill him, as it takes people to look after him, and you effectively hinder 3 other people...yadda yadda. .223 FMJ = crap, but that's a whole other thread. Moral of the story being FMJ does indeed poke little holes in people, which is not ideal.

If you want knockdown power, get a .50 cal muzzle loader and whack 'em with that big round ball o' lead. Just make sure they're within a few feet of you...and aim for the knees to hit center mass. :)

As to the question of "Shooting to kill", I have always been told that the objective is to "shoot to stop", meaning center of mass. Of course, shooting to stop effectivly is very likely to kill the target, but that is not your concern. The distinction seems academic, really.

I was told the reason for this is that you never want to tell a cop or prosecuter that you were trying to kill someone, but that you were trying to stop an attack.

This information I recieved from some very smart sounding internet lawyers, so take that for what it's worth. Free legal advice is worth every penny you paid for it.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

#2
Frangible ammunition is in it's infancy and should not be relied on.
The vast majority of frangible is designed for "kill houses" or activities in which lead slugs rebounding from steel plates is very dangerous.

#3
HOLLOWPOINTS

I'm gonna break this down into a few here.

#2
NOT frangible.
Frangibles are pre-fragmented.
Hollowpoints are not with a few notable exceptions.

#3
Hydraulic pressure of bodily fluids entering the hollow cavity (hollow point) forces the nose to open.
If you have ever looked inside a Hydrashock and seen the little rod, well that is designed to redirect the force OUT and open the cavity.
If there is no fluid, then the bullet probably won't work right.

#4
If the bullet strikes a solid object such as drywall, the cavity often clogs (some 75% of the time in FBI 45acp testing IIRC) and fails to expand.
They then act as a solid, or FMJ and penetration is drastically increased.

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Thanks GW. I didn't know this.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

get a real gun

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Out of curiosity: what type of gun and which ammo would you recommend?

the largest gun you can shoot competently and conceal effectively

there are no hard and fast rules here

but a good example of the "man up" concept can be illustrated in the 38spl-357mag debate

the only real difference is a slight increase in the weight of the frame and the length of the cylinder
the brass does not contain the pressure, but rather rather the frame and cylinder, which makes the 357 heavier in all steel guns but this can be negated by the use of alloys

pay attention to weight on these

here is a 38spl
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie

here is a 357
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie


here is all steel
357
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie

38spl
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie

as you can see there is almost no difference between any of these guns except price
Man up, bite the bullet on the price if you absolutely MUST have an alloy frame, and cope.

What I am saying is that there is no reason to carry a 38 when a 357 is almost exactly the same, even shoots the same practice ammo.
The full power 357 is a very good increase in power.
The 38spl is a poorly shaped 9mm with heavy bullet capabilities
might just go with a 9mm flatgun

BUT THE 357 KICKS MORE
hunters will tell you they don't feel recoil when firing on game
recoil is for target practice

If you ever have to shoot at someone you'll be so geeked you won't feel the recoil, you won't see the flash, you won't hear the gun.
PERIOD.

here are ballistics
38
New Page 2

here is both but light on data
New Page 1

this is short barrels in general
Shooting Illustrated's Guns and Hunting - NRA

What DO I RECOMMEND?

I answered this question yesterday when taking my friend gun shopping.

I say 45, or 40.
357 Sig is acceptable, but is the same package as a 40 and not really better so you might as well just get the 40.

these were my picks
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie

they both offer
increased cap over a wheelgun
width is no wider than wheelgun of a LESSER caliber (a 45 revolver is wider than a 45 auto)
excellent price

here is a 38spl substitute
I really wish people would compare 9mm and 38sp ballistics and see that they are nearly the same gun
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie
this gun is a true hide out
very small
very light
increase in capacity over a 38spl
easier to reload/carry extra ammo
this is the MAN UP version of the P3AT (380) which is my final link

The Oklahoma shooter was using this gun, the Kel-Tec P3AT
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie
this gun is fine, but only if you intend to shoot and haul ass

I myself prefer BANG-FLOP
man up

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

What DO I RECOMMEND?

I answered this question yesterday when taking my friend gun shopping.

I say 45, or 40.
357 Sig is acceptable, but is the same package as a 40 and not really better so you might as well just get the 40.

these were my picks
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie
GalleryofGuns.com - Gun Genie

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I just had a look at those guns. That is the sort of thing I would choose for CCW. And by the looks of it, these are not that much more difficult to carry and conceal than the 0.38

Silly question, but is there a reason that the slide and the frame have different colors, other than aesthetic?

I don't know Glen, I was in the Military, I think if I empty a mag of 7.62 into the idiot, He'll drop like a rock. He'd have so much lead in him, spinal cord or not, he ain't standin'. Ya know. Oh, you said single shot, my bad.....then, head shot for sure...through the eye...

He went into the Drug Store with intent to Rob and/or Kill the guy. I think the Pharmacist was a bit jacked up. This is what I tell people at work when they buy a self defense weapon. They look at 40's, 45's, 9mm and some guy just bought a Judge. ( A Judge is revolver chambered for 410 (a shotgun round) and 45 long colt...) a heavy hitter.
I try to tell them, unless you've been in a situation like that, you don't know how your going to react. Police train, so do special forces, but you never know until you are there. Get a shotgun. You just have to be close, I've seen people miss a target at 7yds. I don't how far it is from most people's couch's to their door, but i'd bet it's more than 7yds.....Good thing too about a shotgun, The pelletts are not going to go into your neighbors house like a 45 would, or say a 9mm. One lucky shot and you could take out your neighbor....That's a situation you never want to be in.....

I personally saw someone take a 357 magnum chambered with Black Talon's, they're 180 grain fwiw., put it to their head, pull the trigger and they dropped like a rock. The bullet traveled with such velocity, it went through the victim, and knocked a chunck out of a brick in the residence.
True Story.....I don't care who you are, this is something you never need to see in your lifetime, still, I'm pro gun....

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I just had a look at those guns. That is the sort of thing I would choose for CCW. And by the looks of it, these are not that much more difficult to carry and conceal than the 0.38

Silly question, but is there a reason that the slide and the frame have different colors, other than aesthetic?

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Strictly Aesthetic's.

Here's food for thought, when we talk about one shot drop, or one shot kill, another thing you need to consider is size, physical conditoning, health, etc...Take the movie, "The Green Mile" remember the guy with the little mouse, The little skinny white southern guy, I'd bet one shot from a 45 would take him out anywhere I hit him, quick. the leg, because of the Artery, he'd bleed out in under 5 minutes, give or take. Now, take the big African American huge bodybuilder guy, that had the magical powers, forgetting his "magical powers" his sheer size alone, you could empty a mag into him and he'd just keep coming. If my life depended on it, I'd shoot him once in leg, once in the head....