Who do you "pray" to?

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Perhaps it is semantics, but doesn't the whole part about amino acids, etc, etc forming on their own in the primordial soup count as "spontaneous generation"?

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I don't think so. The hypothesis is that neucleotides formed from elements present in the atmosphere. You could question where these elements came from, which would lead to solar system formation, nuclear fusion within stars, and ultimately the Big Bang, which is a different topic altogether.

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That's a pretty good story/theory, and the resemblance to a simple cell is quite attractive, but the lipids are seperate and distinct from the RNA, are they not? And as such, even if a fortunate RNA happened to aquire a clump of lipids around it, it would not be part of that RNA's makeup, and thus not be passed on to the next generation of RNA, which would make that idea bunkum.

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This is bordering on the limits of my technical knowledge, but I'll try my best. These "cells" (not really cells) form tubular branch shapes when they grow. These then split to form smaller versions of themselves, which will in turn grow. This is not speculation, it has been shown to happen, under a range of conditions. (Sorry I can't find a video about it, I might post later.)

Regarding your point about "passing on to the next generation", you are thinking along sexual lines (don't we all...). But remember, sexual reproduction hasn't come along yet. The "cells" are reproducing by splitting, and are called "self replicating" rather than reproducing.

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As an aside: why do these vids all contain some degree of hostility? That one targets Kurt Cameron, an actor, and I suppose eager Christian of some sort. Why single him out for ridicule? Is he a reknown expert on religion?

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I'm sorry about that, seriously.

There is a war on YouTube (and probably society in general?) between science and religion. On YouTube the gloves are off. Alot of videos are counter videos to counter videos to counter videos etc.

There are certain people who are poster boys for the creationist movement on Youtube (Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort, Kent Hovind). These guys say some really dumb things (sorry, no way to say it politely), and for this reason are targets for the makers of scientific counter videos.

Although some of these are laced with mockery, the information is sound. But I understand that someone who is just watching a video honestly without background would be put off by the tone (which you will find on both sides).

[QUOTE=jcd;430436]
First, nothing "de-evolves", whatever that is.

Entropy-
1: a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system's disorder, that is a property of the system's state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system ; broadly : the degree of disorder or uncertainty in a system

2 a: the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b: a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder ( this is the "natural" tendency of all matter even that which calls itself evolved.)

Understanding religion as (faith in) a personal set or institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices,this in itself makes evolution a religion as well. If "scientific method " is dogmatic enuf (pun intended) to leave out any possible explanation (for instance Intelligent Design) then a scientific fact will always be questioned. Agree to disagree, Believe as one will, I guess the only truth will be found out (proven) in the end.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Back on the thread's topic: Who do you pray to:


So, lets say there was this couple who were told by the medical community (i.e.-scientific evidence) that they were unable to have children, for a number of reasons (not the least of which, the woman was 43 at the time). Not once, not twice, but many times, by many different doctors. Specialists in the field. The test levels are so low that they won't even attempt hormone shots, etc.

So, after that rigamarole, they turn to spiritual guidance in the form of a Christian monastic they knew, who told them to come to her monastery the following week, because as chance would have it a visiting priest was coming with a piece of the True Cross of Christ.

Long story short- they were blessed with The Cross, and a few months later became pregnant, and had a baby boy.

-Perhaps coincidence? Right? One in a million chance. Okay.

In thanksgiving to God a year or so later they go to visit another Christian monastery to speak with the priestmonk there, to share the good news, to thank God, and to ask if they should/could ask God if they could perhaps have another child, and to ask the priest monk for his prayers in those regards.

"Sure, that'd be the most natural thing in the world to ask for..." he says to them.

A couple of weeks later they find out that they are pregnant again.

Coincidence yet again? Or does it start to maybe point toward some evidentiary claims?

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Is this a true story? If so, I'd not accept any of it unless it could be done in a controlled environment. Without doing so, you can use said "cross splinter" to explain anything that is previously unexplainable. It's only evidentiary if it can be replicated.

So, get a bunch of religious, God-fearing couples who can't conceive, and rub that piece of wood on all of them. If, say 10 of 100 couples had success, then I'd consider it pretty remarkable. Of course there's real no chance any of this is true or possible, based upon what we know about the lack of impregnating qualities of a piece of wood.

Again, this discussion is going to continue around in circles because this is what we believe (or don't). But I'll say this - I was raised Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, eucharist, the whole thing. Years of Bible study, schooling, classes, college discussions. I've read the dogmas, books, epistles, gospels, canon law. It all points to a bunch of things that can't be proven, and that's where I went my separate way.

To me at least this way never anything I could figure out with my mind or with science. Like many of you have said...it just can't be proven. I tried to believe much of my life but it just was not there. I read the bible for a year straight, trying to believe but could not take the final step of faith.

Then one day it just happened, I believed with the very core of my being. Everything in my life changed. With little or no conscious thought or effort, my feelings and direction was different. I have no doubts and the focus of my life changed for the better.

It cannot be explained, or reasoned. I don't especially think it is even a conscious choice to believe. If and when you should, you will. Simple as that.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Is this a true story? If so, I'd not accept any of it unless it could be done in a controlled environment. Without doing so, you can use said "cross splinter" to explain anything that is previously unexplainable. It's only evidentiary if it can be replicated.

So, get a bunch of religious, God-fearing couples who can't conceive, and rub that piece of wood on all of them. If, say 10 of 100 couples had success, then I'd consider it pretty remarkable. Of course there's real no chance any of this is true or possible, based upon what we know about the lack of impregnating qualities of a piece of wood.

Again, this discussion is going to continue around in circles because this is what we believe (or don't). But I'll say this - I was raised Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, eucharist, the whole thing. Years of Bible study, schooling, classes, college discussions. I've read the dogmas, books, epistles, gospels, canon law. It all points to a bunch of things that can't be proven, and that's where I went my separate way.

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Yes, it is a true story.

I think the fact that not only one child was concieved, but two after being told that they could not have any counts a repeating the experiment as close as possible in real world conditions.

From what I've heard of that priest's travels with that piece of the Cross, I think the sucess rate would meet your 10 out of 100 mark easily as well.

Can any of it be proven? No, probably not. Can any of it be experienced in your own life? Most definitely yes.

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Originally Posted by jcd

This is bordering on the limits of my technical knowledge, but I'll try my best. These "cells" (not really cells) form tubular branch shapes when they grow. These then split to form smaller versions of themselves, which will in turn grow. This is not speculation, it has been shown to happen, under a range of conditions. (Sorry I can't find a video about it, I might post later.)

Regarding your point about "passing on to the next generation", you are thinking along sexual lines (don't we all...). But remember, sexual reproduction hasn't come along yet. The "cells" are reproducing by splitting, and are called "self replicating" rather than reproducing.

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I understand what he is saying about the primitive RNA molecule dividing, replicating, etc. That's fine. What I am taking issue with is the way he throws out the lipid sphere thing as a bridge to more complex cell formation, as the lipid clumping tendancy has nothing to do with replication, has nothing to do with the RNA themselves, and exists entirely apart from the RNA molecules. It paints a pretty picture of what appears to be a rudimentary cell in outward form, but it's as if to say that you or I putting on a fur coat will result in out progeny having fur coats themselves. Know what I'm getting at?

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

To me at least this way never anything I could figure out with my mind or with science. Like many of you have said...it just can't be proven. I tried to believe much of my life but it just was not there. I read the bible for a year straight, trying to believe but could not take the final step of faith.

Then one day it just happened, I believed with the very core of my being. Everything in my life changed. With little or no conscious thought or effort, my feelings and direction was different. I have no doubts and the focus of my life changed for the better.

It cannot be explained, or reasoned. I don't especially think it is even a conscious choice to believe. If and when you should, you will. Simple as that.

Tony

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Thanks for sharing this, Tony.

I can't speak in regard to doctrine of other Christian faiths, but Roman Catholicism teaches that "faith" is a divine gift from God. Free will dictates that the individual if given the gift of faith can choose to BELIEVE or not to believe in God. Without faith, a person obviously would not believe in God.

I'm glad we can all discuss these types of things here.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

I understand what he is saying about the primitive RNA molecule dividing, replicating, etc. That's fine. What I am taking issue with is the way he throws out the lipid sphere thing as a bridge to more complex cell formation, as the lipid clumping tendancy has nothing to do with replication, has nothing to do with the RNA themselves, and exists entirely apart from the RNA molecules. It paints a pretty picture of what appears to be a rudimentary cell in outward form, but it's as if to say that you or I putting on a fur coat will result in out progeny having fur coats themselves. Know what I'm getting at?

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I do know what you're getting at. I believe I did actually explain how the fur coat is passed on, but I accept I didn't do a good job. It's hard to do without diagrams.

Imagine I am wearing the coat. I replicate not by having sex, but by cutting myself in half.

No there are two little versions of me. We both have flesh, and coats (of sorts), and when we've grown up we can cut ourselves in half again.

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

To me at least this way never anything I could figure out with my mind or with science. Like many of you have said...it just can't be proven. I tried to believe much of my life but it just was not there. I read the bible for a year straight, trying to believe but could not take the final step of faith.

Then one day it just happened, I believed with the very core of my being. Everything in my life changed. With little or no conscious thought or effort, my feelings and direction was different. I have no doubts and the focus of my life changed for the better.

It cannot be explained, or reasoned. I don't especially think it is even a conscious choice to believe. If and when you should, you will. Simple as that.

Tony

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I've never had a problem with any of this.

I only get my knickers in a twist when scientific claims are made.

What other people believe on faith privately is none of my business, I butt out.

JCD,
I would agree. If I were to look only at the 'science" as I did for years I too would say it does not add up. Now it does not matter if it adds up.

Tony