Health Insurance in the USA

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08-03-2009, 04:45 PM
JimmyHAD

one more here
08-03-2009, 04:50 PM
xman

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...ymuFL9dHZiuS2w

Tragic. Any development in the case?
08-03-2009, 04:58 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman

Tragic. Any development in the case?

I don't know X. I just heard of it on the Bill Moyer's show Friday night. The link in the post above.
08-03-2009, 05:01 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

And while her family was waiting for the insurance company to get off of their duff why wasn't the mother and father harrassing the doctors until they did the transplant or call every charity organisation and every person they know, or have a fundraising drive to get the money they needed to get the transplant done?

They did exactly that . If it hadn't of been for their organizing demonstrations heavily participated in by doctors, nurses and other health professionals the insurance company wouldn't have capitulated.... albeit too late.
08-03-2009, 05:06 PM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't know X. I just heard of it on the Bill Moyer's show Friday night. The link in the post above.

And there will be more. They will hunt high and low, turn over every rock to prove we need a national system, all the while ignoring the flaws in the system they are touting.
how would you like to be turned away from the hospital at 65 because your worth to the government is less than the cost of care you need and unlike our system now you will have no other choice than to comply.
08-03-2009, 05:10 PM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

They did exactly that . If it hadn't of been for their organizing demonstrations heavily participated in by doctors, nurses and other health professionals the insurance company wouldn't have capitulated.... albeit too late.

They demonstrated to get the insurance to pay, not to get the help their daughter needed. Thats my point they chased after the devils promise instead of searching for real help
08-03-2009, 05:11 PM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

It neither takes a genius nor an assumption to understand that you can not know the hearts and minds and personal experiences of us who do not believe that a national health care is the way to go.

No one has waited when they know their help is needed. If this lady in the video had opened her eyes and her mouth sooner someone would've stepped forward to help. This I am certain of. We are not in the habit of letting our fellow citizens die in the streets.

If people are inherently good and will undoubtedly help their fellow man, please explain this.

YouTube - Hartford Man Hit by Car and No one Helps

Police: Woman raped, witnesses do nothing - Broadsheet - Salon.com
Woman Raped in Washington Park as Hundreds Watched, Nobody Intervened

Not to mention the case where a woman was gang raped in a crowded bar and no one did anything.

This crap happens all the time. :(
08-03-2009, 05:14 PM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leighton

If people are inherently good and will undoubtedly help their fellow man, please explain this.

YouTube - Hartford Man Hit by Car and No one Helps

Police: Woman raped, witnesses do nothing - Broadsheet - Salon.com
Woman Raped in Washington Park as Hundreds Watched, Nobody Intervened

Not to mention the case where a woman was gang raped in a crowded bar and no one did anything.

This crap happens all the time. :(

You heartless people. Is this the norm in our society? I dare say not!
08-03-2009, 05:33 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

And there will be more. They will hunt high and low, turn over every rock to prove we need a national system, all the while ignoring the flaws in the system they are touting.
how would you like to be turned away from the hospital at 65 because your worth to the government is less than the cost of care you need and unlike our system now you will have no other choice than to comply.

We're friends Mark and I don't mean this as a personal affront but I have to say that my impression is that this is an example of ideology trumping facts. I don't think you really believe that would happen in the real world if we had a NHS.

It certainly isn't the case in the rest of the industrialized world where NHC is a given. The fact that here in the USA 47 million Americans have no health insurance is bad enough but those that do have it must live in fear that if the day comes when they are stricken with a serious illness the insurance co will make them fight for treatment if they don't cancel them to begin with. Something our European brethren don't have to worry about.
08-03-2009, 05:35 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leighton

This crap happens all the time. :(

Yes and it is not a new phenomenon;

Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read the whole thing it is another good reason for a death penalty.
08-03-2009, 05:43 PM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Yes and it is not a new phenomenon;

Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats the other one I was thinking about! They're both next to each other in one of my case books. But I don't want to touch any one of them with a 10 ft. pole at the moment.....

JMS,
I'm just wondering, but do you think it was alright for the insurance company to deny her claim?

Also, she's still alive. Perhaps she did receive help from others as you have suggested she do. But I think the point is:
The insurance company should not be in the business of finding any and all excuses to deny claims. I think its disturbing. Maybe others think differently.

Something to think about: What happens when insurance companies require us to genetically screen before offering insurance? :eek:
08-03-2009, 07:07 PM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

And while her family was waiting for the insurance company to get off of their duff why wasn't the mother and father harrassing the doctors until they did the transplant or call every charity organisation and every person they know, or have a fundraising drive to get the money they needed to get the transplant done?

Excuse me? Is this acceptable? Should this be required? Should they have to lower themselves to harrassing doctors and begging for money?

The insurance company execs should be tarred and feathered, and then caned for good measure. doing what you describe should never be necessary.
08-03-2009, 07:11 PM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

And there will be more. They will hunt high and low, turn over every rock to prove we need a national system, all the while ignoring the flaws in the system they are touting.
how would you like to be turned away from the hospital at 65 because your worth to the government is less than the cost of care you need and unlike our system now you will have no other choice than to comply.

Dammit Mark. why are you intent on saying things that are not true.
I get care from cradle to coffin, so where does this number of 65 years come from? The government pays the bills. The doctors provide the care.
08-03-2009, 07:37 PM
majurey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leighton

The insurance company should not be in the business of finding any and all excuses to deny claims.

Playing devil's advocate, I'd say the insurance company, being a business either privately owned or publicly listed with shareholders to satisfy, would definitely be expected to minimise its exposure to costs. That's one of the things businesses do to remain competitive.

What the insurance company should not be in the business of (sorry, awful grammar, I know) is being the sole enabler of healthcare. Cars and houses are one thing, life is another. I would not want my healthcare enabler to see me and my family as just a number on a balance sheet, or just another car/house/commodity to cover.

But being put in that position, it's not shocking what they do -- the problem is they never should be in that position to begin with. Not for health and life.
08-03-2009, 08:20 PM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by majurey

Playing devil's advocate, I'd say the insurance company, being a business either privately owned or publicly listed with shareholders to satisfy, would definitely be expected to minimise its exposure to costs. That's one of the things businesses do to remain competitive.

What the insurance company should not be in the business of (sorry, awful grammar, I know) is being the sole enabler of healthcare. Cars and houses are one thing, life is another. I would not want my healthcare enabler to see me and my family as just a number on a balance sheet, or just another car/house/commodity to cover.

But being put in that position, it's not shocking what they do -- the problem is they never should be in that position to begin with. Not for health and life.

I agree. A business needs to keep its costs down in order to maximize profits. People need to do that too. Donating to charity does not maximize profits. You finish the analogy.

And that is one of the reasons I think the current system is broken.

I find it more reprehensible that the insurance company denied her claim after collecting her insurance premiums for so long. Its one thing to simply deny coverage at all because of a "preexisting condition," but its another to provide that person with coverage and the belief they are covered, and then to deny it all because its preexisting. Well, if your going to deny coverage, you should do so before taking someone's money; not after.

That said, I still have problems for denying insurance coverage for preexisting conditions. Bothers me deep down inside. Even though it makes sense rationally.
08-03-2009, 11:02 PM
thebigspendur

The very point is when you need expensive health care or just care you can't afford why should you have go to begging for help? Why should you have to beg the hospital to take you as a charity case? Why should you have to attempt and embarass the insurance company to cover you? Why should you have to denigrate yourself to get the care you need?

Unfortunately I think with many people its the old dog eat dog mentality. Well I have great insurance, I'm well taken care of. What you have no insurance? That's your problem not mine. or, I'm not going to pay for someones else's problem and possibly degrade my own situation to boot.

There are just some problems where the Govt has to go and do the right thing. I'm sure many here would object to Social security if that was being debated today and many would object to medicare if that hadn't been passed years ago. The same with SSI and welfare too.
08-04-2009, 12:05 AM
JimR

I'm out of this fight.
Enjoy your third world society.
08-04-2009, 03:06 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

Dammit Mark. why are you intent on saying things that are not true.
I get care from cradle to coffin, so where does this number of 65 years come from? The government pays the bills. The doctors provide the care.

Oh this is great Bruno! Idon't think I ever seen you cuss:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao
08-04-2009, 03:58 AM
JMS

Lets start with this:10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care - Brief Analysis #649
08-04-2009, 04:14 AM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

Lets start with this:10 Surprising Facts about American Health*Care - Brief Analysis #649

No one wants to be like Canada anyway..... :roflmao

But seriously, most of those stats are comparing Canada to the US. I don't know what to make of that.

As for the other stats, its a conceded point that the US has better "rare disease" care than other countries.
08-04-2009, 04:28 AM
JMS

And yet more..if you care to read the bill that is: Dagnamit! I tried to upload the bill but it is too big so I split it in half and each half is now bigger than the original. Can anyone help?
08-04-2009, 04:35 AM
hoglahoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

Can anyone help?

I can provide a link to the pdf: http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
08-04-2009, 04:54 AM
hoglahoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Keep some Kleenex handy if you've to a heart.

Everyone who wants to help her out, get her paypal address and send her some money.

The appeal to pity is lost on me as a valid argument for government-funded socialism though
08-04-2009, 05:03 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

Excuse me? Is this acceptable? Should this be required? Should they have to lower themselves to harrassing doctors and begging for money?

The insurance company execs should be tarred and feathered, and then caned for good measure. doing what you describe should never be necessary.

My point was that you do what you need to do now and worry about making your insurance do right later if they don't do it in the first place other wise someone might die in the mean time
08-04-2009, 05:06 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

We're friends Mark and I don't mean this as a personal affront but I have to say that my impression is that this is an example of ideology trumping facts. I don't think you really believe that would happen in the real world if we had a NHS.

It certainly isn't the case in the rest of the industrialized world where NHC is a given. The fact that here in the USA 47 million Americans have no health insurance is bad enough but those that do have it must live in fear that if the day comes when they are stricken with a serious illness the insurance co will make them fight for treatment if they don't cancel them to begin with. Something our European brethren don't have to worry about.

Thanks for being so thoughtful in your post Jimmy! You should read the bill though.
08-04-2009, 05:15 AM
AussiePostie

Come on! some of you guys, the goverment takes your money and spends it on all types of crap and that,s allright? They finally want to spend some of it on something decent for its citizens welfare and your against it.
I just don,t get it.:(
08-04-2009, 05:20 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The fact that here in the USA 47 million Americans have no health insurance is bad enough

I wonder about that number 47 million. If we looked at that number honestly I wonder how many do without because they don't want insurance, or make enough that they feel they don't need insurance. How many are in that figure are really just between jobs so for a short time they have no insurance, and lastly, how many are illegally here in the states? I bet that number would drop by way more than half if it was analyzed honestly.
08-04-2009, 05:26 AM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leighton

As for the other stats, its a conceded point that the US has better "rare disease" care than other countries.

Aren't all those case handled by Gregory House?
08-04-2009, 05:35 AM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

I wonder about that number 47 million. If we looked at that number honestly I wonder how many do without because they don't want insurance, or make enough that they feel they don't need insurance. How many are in that figure are really just between jobs so for a short time they have no insurance, and lastly, how many are illegally here in the states? I bet that number would drop by way more than half if it was analyzed honestly.

Not going to comment on the immiration angle because I simply don't know.

1) don't want insurance -> teeny minority I think, because that's just plain stupid, as the first occurence of medium medical issue will clean them out and they know it.
2) don't need insurance -> teeny minority since there aren't that many ultra rich who won't notice dropping 100K.

Btw the immigrants would get ER treatment which they would get at a point where their condition has turned from 'doctors visit' seriousness to 'ER level + compications' seriousness and as a result be more $$$.
08-04-2009, 06:02 AM
AussiePostie

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

It neither takes a genius nor an assumption to understand that you can not know the hearts and minds and personal experiences of us who do not believe that a national health care is the way to go.

No one has waited when they know their help is needed. If this lady in the video had opened her eyes and her mouth sooner someone would've stepped forward to help. This I am certain of. We are not in the habit of letting our fellow citizens die in the streets.

Point 1 - Correct I do not know what you are thinking or feeling.Only what you are saying. You have only ever lived under the private system so you have only ever seen one side of the coin.
I do know what I am talking about because in Australia we have both systems and no one I know has ever been screwed under Medicare but I know people who have had very bad experiences with their private insurers.
Point 2 - So unless someone asks for your help you won,t give it? Has everyone in America got your phone number just incase they need your help? Would it not be easier to do away with all those time consuming phone calls and just chip in a little, you know, help out some fellow human beings without having to be asked. It will make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside!:)
08-04-2009, 06:07 AM
JMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by AussiePostie

Point 1 - Correct I do not know what you are thinking or feeling.Only what you are saying. You have only ever lived under the private system so you have only ever seen one side of the coin.
I do know what I am talking about because in Australia we have both systems and no one I know has ever been screwed under Medicare but I know people who have had very bad experiences with their private insurers.
Point 2 - So unless someone asks for your help you won,t give it? Has everyone in America got your phone number just incase they need your help? Would it not be easier to do away with all those time consuming phone calls and just chip in a little, you know, help out some fellow human beings without having to be asked. It will make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside!:)

Do you normally twist peoples words or do you really not get what I have said?
08-04-2009, 07:33 AM
AussiePostie

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

Do you normally twist peoples words or do you really not get what I have said?

Dear JMS,
I am sorry if I have appeared ignorant or offended you in any way. I am a simple man and like simple answers and seeing as I have not even visited your country let alone lived there you are probably right in the fact that I don,t know what i am talking about. So I will not bother you again and will keep my opinions on this subject to my self.
I truly mean this,I wish you all good luck in whatever your government decides to do.
Yours Truly Steve.
08-04-2009, 08:06 AM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

We are not in the habit of letting our fellow citizens die in the streets.

New York City disagrees.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/pdf/...-mar08_rpt.pdf

36 reported homeless deaths per quarter. As of early 2008.
08-04-2009, 08:09 AM
majurey

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

Lets start with this:10 Surprising Facts about American Health*Care - Brief Analysis #649

Ummm, Mark... have you seen the board of directors of the 'thinktank' that came up with that article?

The mission started to sound a little fishy to me: "The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."

You see, that sounds like a pretty big in-your-face agenda that says to me they have vested interests in keeping the status quo.

SO I looked into who's on the board of the NCPA. Who's calling the shots? Who's driving the agenda? Quite an impressive list it turns out. Amongst all the CEOs of large businesses, they include:

WILLIAM J. GEDWED serves as President and Chief Executive Officer of HealthMarkets®. Mr. Gedwed serves as a Director and Chairman of the Board of Directors of The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company, Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of Tennessee based in Texas, The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company and Fidelity First Insurance Company.

W. Mike Baggett has been Chairman and CEO of the law firm of Winstead Sechrest & Minick P.C. since 1992. The firm has more than 300 attorneys in 7 cities.

John C. Goodman is NCPA president and CEO of the National Center for Policy Analysis. The Wall Street Journal and the National Journal, among other publications, have called him the "Father of Health Savings Accounts," ... Dr. Goodman's health policy blog is the only right-of-center health care blog on the Internet. It is the only place where pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems are routinely examined and debated.

Plus some investment bankers (I wonder if their investment funds have any interests in insurance businesses? Hmmm...) and Chairman of the Board is Pete du Pont who has served as a state legislator, U.S. Congressman, Governor, and in 1988 was a Republican candidate for President of the United States.

If you were to put together a team to cherry-pick the studies which will further the agenda of the current US health system, I'm not sure you could find a better crew.

What next? A link in the religion thread to the Vatican website to show how science is not the way forward? :)
08-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMS

We who do not wish to have a national health care system do not wish for a dog eat dog world. We do however believe in the goodness of our fellow man and do not think it is the governments job to twist our arm into doing what the government deems best.

Well, Mark, my friend :)...

If the gov will end up twisting your arm, you'll just have to suck it up. Kinda like the 20% of Americans who did not agree with starting a pointless war that ended up costing over 3 trillions of dollars. They had no choice in the matter either.

At least it was money well spent.

.
.
.

Uh...

.
.
.

Wait a minute...
08-04-2009, 03:58 PM
hoglahoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

Kinda like the 20% of Americans who did not agree with starting a pointless war that ended up costing over 3 trillions of dollars. They had no choice in the matter either.

At least it was money well spent.

flame baiting!

off-topic!

irrelevant!

foul, no fair, foul!

PS we won
08-04-2009, 06:03 PM
GregJDS

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Everyone who wants to help her out, get her paypal address and send her some money.

The appeal to pity is lost on me as a valid argument for government-funded socialism though

Thats the perfect arguement for anarchy, which I agree with.
In if someone asks in an anarchic society how would people fund healthcare then you just ask them how much($$$) do you care about health. If people care they will pay , and donate and help , if they do not they will not and have no business bringing up such a point in a discussion if they dont even care enough themselves to contribiute.
Same goes for what happens to the poor in an anarchic society, "You care about the poor? , are you currently devoting any time/energy/resources to helping the poor?, if you are thats how the poor will be cared for, if not then dont be asking because you obviously dont care.

+1 on not letting the pity or over sympathy warp your reason and truth.
Sympathy is usefull and reasonable and very human up to a point, but there is such a thing as over sympathising and then letting somebody get away with things they should not like warping reason/truth.
(that last bit isnt specifically about the lady in the video as this was only present in minor parts of her story, there are other examples in society where its use is far less minor)

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